Shooting at Charlie Hebdo

  • News
  • Thread starter DrClaude
  • Start date
  • #1
DrClaude
Mentor
7,758
4,269
There has been a shooting at the offices of the French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883

It's crazy what some people can come to if they feel their "beliefs" have been "mocked."
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Bystander
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
5,338
1,416
"At least twelve dead?"
 
  • #3
DrClaude
Mentor
7,758
4,269
Latest news names the journalists/cartoonists Charb (editor in chief publishing director), Cabu and Wolinski among the victims.

I have no words to express my sadness. This is a great loss. :L
 
Last edited:
  • #4
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
The statement from the OP article, "The gunmen shouted 'we have avenged the Prophet Muhammad', witnesses say", could be a pointer to the identity and motivations of the killers. But an Australian moderator on another forum said,

"It should be, but it could also be something dreamed up by an extreme right-wing group to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment in France.

Okay, that's an extremely unlikely explanation - the point is that we should wait and see what happens before jumping to conclusions. Look at the Sydney siege gunman, who used radical iconography during his attack, but whose motivations had nothing to do with radical Islam."
 
  • #5
DrClaude
Mentor
7,758
4,269
The statement from the OP article, "The gunmen shouted 'we have avenged the Prophet Muhammad', witnesses say", could be a pointer to the identity and motivations of the killers. But an Australian moderator on another forum said,

"It should be, but it could also be something dreamed up by an extreme right-wing group to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment in France.

Okay, that's an extremely unlikely explanation - the point is that we should wait and see what happens before jumping to conclusions. Look at the Sydney siege gunman, who used radical iconography during his attack, but whose motivations had nothing to do with radical Islam."
We won't know the motivations of the killers until tehy get arrested and tried, or they release a statement. But one should use Occam's razor and, if the eyewitness statements are correct, assume that this was religiously motivated. Charlie Hebdo has been targeted in the past.
 
  • #6
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
We won't know the motivations of the killers until tehy get arrested and tried, or they release a statement. But one should use Occam's razor and, if the eyewitness statements are correct, assume that this was religiously motivated. Charlie Hebdo has been targeted in the past.

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. Millions of Muslims have fled war and deprivation in the Middle East. They will have many motivations and justifications for their actions, religion being only one.
 
  • #7
Borg
Science Advisor
Gold Member
1,993
3,037
We won't know the motivations of the killers until tehy get arrested and tried, or they release a statement. But one should use Occam's razor and, if the eyewitness statements are correct, assume that this was religiously motivated. Charlie Hebdo has been targeted in the past.
I have to agree. I'll have to go with what was reported in the news rather than random internet opinions that strain credibility.
 
  • #8
18,668
8,634
Latest news names the journalists/cartoonists Charb (editor in chief), Cabu and Wolinski among the victims.
I am so angry and sad. This along with the North Korea fiasco will be a massive test for the freedom of speech and press in the free worlds.
 
  • #9
lisab
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
1,955
620
This is awful. France 24 reports the terrorists shouted, "We avenged the prophet, we killed Charlie Hebdo!" before driving off.

They are mistaken.

Je suis Charlie Hebdo!
 
  • Like
Likes enosis_
  • #10
36,064
7,998
We won't know the motivations of the killers until tehy get arrested and tried, or they release a statement. But one should use Occam's razor and, if the eyewitness statements are correct, assume that this was religiously motivated. Charlie Hebdo has been targeted in the past.

This is awful. France 24 reports the terrorists shouted, "We avenged the prophet, we killed Charlie Hebdo!" before driving off.

They are mistaken.
Sounds religious to me...
 
  • Like
Likes lisab
  • #11
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
...before driving off.
If they had blown themselves up it would be more convincingly religious. :rolleyes:

Perhaps it would help to catch them and then find the truth?
 
  • #12
I'm afraid nothing short of events like this will be enough to curtail excessive PC practiced nowadays.

Religions are not skin color or shape of your eyes. You are not born with it, you accept its ideas - or decline. Religions are sets of ideas, they are ideologies, and they are not all equally good or evil.

Yet somehow, it is okay to disagree with a political idea (e.g. you can openly critisize Nazism. Or capitalism. Etc), but whenever you criticize a religion, you are labeled "racist".
 
  • Like
Likes lisab and jim hardy
  • #13
DrClaude
Mentor
7,758
4,269
Millions of Muslims have fled war and deprivation in the Middle East.
I don't see what this would have to do with Charlie Hebdo, while I can see why religious fanatics would be angry at them.
 
  • #14
russ_watters
Mentor
21,473
8,499
We won't know the motivations of the killers until tehy get arrested and tried, or they release a statement....
IMO, shouting their motivation during the attack is releasing a statement.
 
  • Like
Likes enosis_, lisab and Borg
  • #15
DrClaude
Mentor
7,758
4,269
IMO, shouting their motivation during the attack is releasing a statement.
Indeed. I have now seen video where they clearly shout "on a vengé le prophète Mohamed" ("we have avenged the prophet Mohamed").
 
  • Like
Likes lisab
  • #17
Apparently, we are in great danger. Not of being unable to speak freely without running the risk of being gunned down, mind you. We are at great risk of, gasp, "rise in anti-Islam sentiment". It's not allowed to be anti-Islam, you right-wing fascist racist pig you!

Quote from the article: "many feared for the long-term implications for a French society already witness to a steady rise in xenophobic and anti-Islam sentiment"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-attack-turning-point-french-politics
 
  • Like
Likes mheslep
  • #18
Bystander
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
5,338
1,416
"Judge not lest ye be judged by the company of the birds of a feather you flock with."
 
  • #19
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
From a friend in Europe I hear,

- French authorities have identified the 3 terrorists.

- Their ages: 18, 32 and 34 years old. Two are brothers and supposedly of French nationality.

- The French edition of Metro reports this.

- More reports are coming out that 2 of them went to Syria this summer.

- Brothers are Cherif and Said K. and the youngest is called Hamyd M.

- Already known by French police and actively involved in recruiting jihadists for the Iraq conflict around 2005. Hamyd M. is a recent arrival.

- The police also raided a house in the northeast of Paris, Pantin, without any arrests made.
 
  • Like
Likes Borg, HossamCFD and Greg Bernhardt
  • #20
63
199
What a vicious and barbaric attack!

I wonder if this madness will ever end.
 
  • #21
What a vicious and barbaric attack!

I'm a bit puzzled by seeing many reactions like yours. Yes, this was a terrorist attack.

But.

Every day, something like this happens in other places. Even much worse things happen. Say, Boko Haram killing _hundreds_ of people, and taking women into slavery (!!!). Or North Korea running Nazi-style extermination camps for about 200 thousand of its dissidents (this particular atrocity happens RIGHT NOW as we speak). We do nothing.

Every time I think about it, it almost hurts. I recall reading documentary evidence about Nazi camps. This was horrible beyond belief. And it happens. Now. Again.

But people somehow don't get outraged.

[edit] Somehow it ended up sounding wrong. As if I accuse you of something... didn't mean it this way. Sorry.
 
Last edited:
  • #22
nsaspook
Science Advisor
1,146
1,996
People are outraged that this medieval behavior happened in a modern western society. The motivational factors for this extreme violence seems completely out of sync with the level of wrong to the attackers for those who believe in basic human freedom of expression in a modern democracy. I'm outraged but not surprised.
 
  • Like
Likes HossamCFD
  • #23
63
199
I'm a bit puzzled by seeing many reactions like yours. Yes, this was a terrorist attack.

But.

Every day, something like this happens in other places. Even much worse things happen. Say, Boko Haram killing _hundreds_ of people, and taking women into slavery (!!!). Or North Korea running Nazi-style extermination camps for about 200 thousand of its dissidents (this particular atrocity happens RIGHT NOW as we speak). We do nothing.

and the list goes on... ISIS almost unprecedented savagery, cleansing entire communities, and making an industry out of sex slaves! Taliban Pakistan massacring 140 school children, and so on. All of them are abhorrent, yet it shouldn't stop people from getting appalled whenever another terrorist attack happens.

But people somehow don't get outraged.
Many people do, including myself.

[edit] Somehow it ended up sounding wrong. As if I accuse you of something... didn't mean it this way. Sorry.
No worries. I know what you mean and I didn't feel accused at all.
 
  • #24
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
What a vicious and barbaric attack!

I wonder if this madness will ever end.
In my opinion, it will not end if this sort of blowback is accepted as an inevitable cost of liberal western European intervention in the Middle East, and welcoming the fleeing victims back in Europe.

On the other hand, if the blowback is deemed intolerable, there are two obvious ways to end the violence:
#1. Elect populist politicians across Europe who will shoo out the Muslims.
#2. Elect another sort of authoritarian regime which enacts Continent-wide blasphemy laws which fully accept the laws and needs of a growing Islamic population in Europe.
 
  • #25
63
199
#1. Elect populist politicians across Europe who will shoo out the Muslims.

Seriously?! Shoo out the muslims?!

I can't believe you actually said that.

People complain that when they criticise Islam they sometimes get labelled bigots. And I agree this is ridiculous. Islam is a religion and it deserves to be criticised, even ridiculed, especially when it inspires some people to behave in this way.

But electing politicians who would purge the entire muslim population off the continent?!

Well I'm glad only few europeans think this way.
 
  • Like
Likes Enigman, billy_joule, Astronuc and 3 others
  • #26
russ_watters
Mentor
21,473
8,499
I'm a bit puzzled by seeing many reactions like yours. Yes, this was a terrorist attack.

But.

Every day, something like this happens in other places...
Well first, for the record, we have threads here for all of those other classes of atrocities you listed. Still:

1. Kinship (with deference to Hossam). This attack hit closer to home for all Westerners than you might think. I have a New Yorker Magazine comic flip calendar on my desk. The reason this attack happend in Paris instead of New York was based primarily on arbitrary immigration choices by the attackers or their parents (not sure what generation they are). The French could think exactly the same thing about the Boston Marathon bombing happening in the Tour de France. As could any other Westerner about either (not to mention Denmark, which has had similar attacks on cartoonists).

2. Rarity/commonality. News gets stale. So if the same thing happens over and over, it is no longer news and doesn't get as much attention. So my first reaction to a Boko Haram atrocity was much stronger than my later reactions. Such attacks are fairly rare in Western countries, so they get a lot of attention when they happen.

3. Expectation/contrast. When atrocities happen in places where atrocities happen, they don't seem as bad because they seem more "normal". So when a rare and terrible act happens in a place where it isn't expected/as common, it stands out more. Similarly, I've heard from people visiting Israel that they were shocked at how little people in Israel pay attention to the daily threat of terrorism and rocket attacks. It becomes normal after a while.
 
  • #27
BobG
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
223
84
IMO, shouting their motivation during the attack is releasing a statement.

It's at least possible that the motivation for the shooting was something else entirely and making it look like a terrorist act was a ruse to send authorities looking for terrorist groups instead of investigating people with some other association with the magazine and/or its employees. They made an attempt to hide their identities, so they weren't exactly sacrificing themselves for their cause. Making it look like a terrorist act could be another attempt to hide their identities.

Not likely, but possible.

Similar to Jeffrey MacDonald murdering his wife and kids and trying to make it look like a cult killing (ala Charlie Manson).

I can understand not wanting to bet the farm that this was a terrorist act.

I'd probably bet at least $10, though.
 
  • #28
russ_watters
Mentor
21,473
8,499
In my opinion, it will not end if this sort of blowback is accepted as an inevitable cost of liberal western European intervention in the Middle East, and welcoming the fleeing victims back in Europe.

On the other hand, if the blowback is deemed intolerable, there are two obvious ways to end the violence:
#1. Elect populist politicians across Europe who will shoo out the Muslims.
#2. Elect another sort of authoritarian regime which enacts Continent-wide blasphemy laws which fully accept the laws and needs of a growing Islamic population in Europe.
Neither of those fits at all with Western values. If we change who we are because of terrorists, we lose -- even if they don't win.
 
  • #29
Dotini
Gold Member
633
231
Neither of those fits at all with Western values. If we change who we are because of terrorists, we lose -- even if they don't win.
Agreed. We need a less obvious way to end the violence, but what is it? Perhaps a time machine and a little chat with Sykes and Picot? Really, it all began at the Crusades.
 
  • #30
mheslep
Gold Member
317
728
Je Suis Charlie.
l' gillotine pour vous, you bastards.
 

Related Threads on Shooting at Charlie Hebdo

  • Last Post
Replies
4
Views
1K
D
  • Last Post
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
1
Views
406
Replies
39
Views
6K
  • Last Post
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
4
Views
433
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
66
Views
6K
  • Last Post
Replies
6
Views
3K
Top