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News Shooting at the Holocaust Museum

  1. Jun 10, 2009 #1

    LowlyPion

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    http://wjz.com/local/shooting.Holacaust.Musuem.2.1039163.html [Broken]

    MSNBC is reporting that the gunman that entered the lobby before the metal detectors was engaged with guards in gunfire. They are also reporting that the individual that entered with a rifle may apparently have ties to white supremacist groups.

    One witness described the shooter as having a Confederate cap on.

    Maybe, that Homeland Security threat assessment wasn't as far off the mark as "outraged" Conservatives were crocodile tearing up about?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
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  3. Jun 10, 2009 #2

    chemisttree

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    James Von Brunn (the gunman) has been a whack job since the late 70's. He entered the Federal Reserve, angry at high interest rates, with a shotgun and a bomb. He served time in Federal prison for that crime and became (or "came out" as) a white supremacist.

    You think that Homeland Security was referring to a man in his late 80's with that threat assessment?
     
  4. Jun 10, 2009 #3

    LowlyPion

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    Lone gunman. White supremacist. Ex-military. Acts of terror. Holocaust denier. Blaming Jews and Blacks for his incarceration. And for America's woes. Yeah ... actually this certainly fits the kind of unstable right wing nut I think they were cataloging in their assessment of threats to domestic tranquility. (So he's 60 years out of the service. That doesn't likely make much difference to the wounded guard and his family.)

    Btw, sounds like a Fox viewer to me. No wonder Fox got their noses so out of joint over that assessment report.
     
  5. Jun 10, 2009 #4

    mgb_phys

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    At least you don't have to deal with the threat of catholics and Yorkshiremen.
    A video featuring a lion telling children how to spot terrorist behaviour in their schoolmates is being shown to 10 year olds.
    http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...hire_youngsters_see_film_on_terrorism_danger/

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/06/teaching_first-.html
     
  6. Jun 10, 2009 #5

    LowlyPion

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    Tragically, the wounded guard has passed away as reported on MSNBC.

    His name was Stephen Tyrone Johns.
     
  7. Jun 10, 2009 #6
    LP, I guess whenever a nut job commits a crime we can blame Fox. :rolleyes:

    I'm not sure he really qualifies as right-wing though. Right wing tends to be pro-Isreal. White supremecists may share some of the opinions of the right wing but the right wing doesn't necessarily share the opinion of white supremecists. Racism, for example, is not a pillar of the right wing.
     
  8. Jun 10, 2009 #7

    Astronuc

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    I don't think the Von Brunn needed any encouragement from FOX. He may not even watch it.
     
  9. Jun 10, 2009 #8
    Preserving the traditional social order is a pillar of the right wing, and white supremacism is a subset of that. Many such bigots are pro-Israel because they want to rid their own society of Jews, and hold equally low or even worse opinion of Arabs. "Jews go back to Palestine" was a popular motto amongst European fascists in the rise of Nazi Germany. Then of course there are the white supremacists who believe Jews are the root of all evil, this madman being an obvious example.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2009
  10. Jun 10, 2009 #9

    LowlyPion

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    He probably is however, because Fox is reporting he is a member of Mensa.
     
  11. Jun 10, 2009 #10

    russ_watters

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    Is what? Are you suggesting Fox is/was encouraging him?

    Does every thread in here become a random Fox bashing thread? I mean honestly, don't you have anything useful to say here?
     
  12. Jun 11, 2009 #11
    NeoNazis are generally anti-federal government, isolationist, anti-corporate, pro-union, and strongly pro-right to privacy. They have little in common with modern republicans. Hell, a few years ago I saw websites by hardcore 'rightwingers' that called Bush a 'queer lover' and promoted theories that he was the anti-christ. Von Brunn himself is even a 9/11 "truther". Most of these people are absolute nutbags and connecting them with mainstream conservatives is about as accurate as connecting anarchists to mainstream liberals.
     
  13. Jun 11, 2009 #12
    First, off, I'll admit, that Jews have invested heavily in American Media and politics. But, what would you expect. What was it that aloud for the rise of the Nazi Party? Answer: Media control, propaganda, racist media etc. So how can Jews prevent this from happening again? Invest enough money in the media to make sure Nazis don't buy it out and start another ethnic cleansing campaign.

    So then if this is true that Jews have control of most of American media outlets, then how have they treated the power that comes with it. Have they used their power to advertise racism and hate. No. In fact it is probably only due to the Jewish influence in the media that America has come so far in regards to racism. So I say Jewish media is a good thing.
     
  14. Jun 11, 2009 #13
  15. Jun 11, 2009 #14
    So you were simply correcting Drankin on his use of the term "right wing"?
    I think his point is that the 'far right' has little in common with the 'right wing' as a whole and saying the guy must be a fan of a right wing news station doesn't make much sense. I assumed you took exception to this and were implying greater commonality. If I was wrong then I apologize.
     
  16. Jun 11, 2009 #15
    russ_watters, Fox News has been spewing hate from every corner for a long time. This gives hardline right wing individuals the belief that they are doing it for the good of the nation. The abortion killing, the shooting at the Holocaust museum are just signs of things to come. No one blames Fox News for having a conservative bias, but recently, there seems to be a lot of individuals (both hosts and guests) trying to raise the level of paranoia and spreading outright lies in some cases. This kind of reporting, whether intentional or not, provides fuel for hardline right wingers, neo nazis etc.

    No one blames the GOP or conservatism, but there is a line between being conservative and a hardline right winger lunatic, sometimes people can easily cross that line. It is the same with the Democrats and the left.
     
  17. Jun 11, 2009 #16
    Amen...
     
  18. Jun 11, 2009 #17
    In all fairness, there are EVERY BIT as many whack jobs on the far left as there are on the far right - esp. in other parts of the world.

    I just wanted to make that quick point.

    Far left, socialist atheists killed millions of people (Russia)

    and

    Far right, capitalist christians killed millions of people (manifest destiny ideologues with the Native Americans for example)
    Here's a prime example from a news story today

    -----

    -----
    Sweden's extreme left ups violent attacks


    Violent threats to democracy from groups on the far left escalated in the run-up to the European Parliament elections, according to the Swedish Security Police (Säpo).


    The far right Sweden Democrats were one of the main targets of the so-called "autonomous" movement. But parties in Sweden's coalition government also found themselves in the firing line.

    "We noted around twenty incidents of violence against people or property. The Sweden Democrats were not the only ones affected; the Liberal and Moderate parties were also hit," said Johan Olsson, chief analyst for Säpo's constitutional protection division.

    The chief perpetrators came from groups on the extreme left such as Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) and Revolutionära Fronten.

    "It's part of what they call their anti-fascist agenda. They don't believe that parties they consider critical of immigrants or opposed to workers' rights should be permitted to operate undisturbed," Olsson told news agency TT.

    One of the more serious incidents recorded in the period leading up to the EU parliament elections was the assault on Saturday night of Sweden Democrat party secretary Martin Kinnunen and his girlfriend.

    The pair were set upon by an estimated ten assailants, according to the public prosecutor. The attack occurred at Gullmarsplan in south Stockholm while the couple were making their way home from a visit to a restaurant.

    Both were taken to hospital after a security guard intervened to halt the attack. Kinnunen's girlfriend suffered concussion and is believed to have been struck across the head with knuckle dusters.

    Two young women, 20 and 25, were remanded in custody on Tuesday in connection with the attack.

    The prosecutor in the case believes at least five more people may be arrested for involvement in the brutal assault.

    Sweden Democrat politicians have also come under attack at public meetings and have had their property destroyed to the extent that the party eventually stopped advertising when it was planning to hold rallies in town squares

    http://www.thelocal.se/19966/20090609/ [Broken]
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  19. Jun 11, 2009 #18
    I think you'll find that real hardliners like neonazis are not likely fans of Fox News. They tend to get their propoganda elsewhere, for instance the very man who is the subject of this thread. He wrote books and articles and posted quite a few rants online too apparently.

    Funny... I just decided to take a look at Stormfront to see what they think of Fox News. So far I've found a thread about Fox's "Jew producer" apparently being arrested for child porn and a thread about a piece Fox did on the site itself which they apparently liked and expressed suprise at Fox actually being "fair and balanced" (from their perspective of course).
    Looking more I am mostly finding criticisms for show personalities being jews, lying about being jewish, or being secret homosexuals. One poster stated "Fox News = Evil".
    Now a thread criticizing a spot they did on black inventors.
    Here's a treat....
    From a thread entitled "Fox News Rigs Entire Debate To Savagely Attack Ron Paul".

    Any one still think that hardline rightwing hate groups must love Fox News?
     
  20. Jun 11, 2009 #19

    russ_watters

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    That's just some high quality crap you're spewing. The idea that Fox's right wing bias provides any fuel for this type of violence is rediculous.

    The fact of the matter is that neo-Nazi and other white supremacist groups (current recession notwithstanding) have been in decline for decades. They were started and thrived long before Fox news even existed. This guy in particular was part of that generations-ago movement. You have no basis whatsoever for your claim other than your own blind hatred for Fox News. You need someone to blame: blame the person actually responsible.

    It is despicable that people try to find ways to shift or borrow blame for such a terrible crime to support their own personal pet hatred.

    Lets put a finer point on it: you say that Fox has been "spewing hate from every corner..." Well this corner holds a neo-Nazi. So prove that Fox has been spewing neo Nazi hate. Show some examples. Then prove that an 80 year old neo-Nazi (someone who has been a neo-Nazi since long before Fox News existed) was acting on that Fox News spewed neo Nazi hate.

    You too, swat4life - since you agree, show me where Fox has spewed neo-Nazi hate.

    [edit] The first prominent white supremacist that came to my mind as a possible guest on Fox was David Duke. So I googled "youtube David Duke". Can you guess what major media news outlet was the only one on the first page of the google?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2009
  21. Jun 11, 2009 #20

    Vanadium 50

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    Just out of curiosity, can you tell us how often Fox has been promoting white supremacy or the murder of minorities in the last, oh, say six months. 100 times? 10 times? Once? Never?
     
  22. Jun 11, 2009 #21

    russ_watters

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    I think the implied connection is obivious. The basic crticism of Fox news that has been a major theme on this forum for months is that Fox news is not just biased, but is biased toward/is a mouthpiece for the right wing of the republican party. LP (and others) have directly inserted this incident into that theme.

    It was bad enough to blame Fox News for the murder of the abortion doctor (crimes against abortion doctors also predate Fox News and are not on the rise), but at least with that, Fox was directly discussing the issue. Here, I think they will be hard pressed to find much, if any of the same direct connection. We've passed the absurd and crossed into the surreal.
     
  23. Jun 11, 2009 #22
    It is not only neo nazis but other people as well who absorb the wrong information and take the wrong action. Fox News has become even more radicalized and just spreads ugly lies and creates a state of fear that is mind blowing. Glenn Beck seriously asking John Hagee whether Obama is the Anti Christ? It was admittedly when Glenn Beck was still at CNN but he says the same things on Fox. All those false reports about Obama being a Muslim who wants to destroy America. Firstly, that is blind hatred towards another faith and secondly, what were they thinking??! There are so many examples out there, just watch the channel.

    Fox News appeals to neo nazis and other loonies in different ways. To a neo nazi, they probably agree that Obama conspires to destroy the nation and who knows that trouble that will cause in the near future. Who knows what spewing hate has done to America? How many disturbed people out there have a motive now for murder, destruction etc. Fox News has created this state of fear, spreading lies that are so obvious, racist overtones towards non Christians, Arabs and sometimes even blacks.

    Russ_watters, Vanadium 50, what I am saying is that I know it is impossible to be an unbiased news channel. But a news channel has a responsibility to not blatantly spread lies and create fear amongst the populace and that is exactly what Fox News is doing. There are other news channels who are biased but not to the extent that Fox is, unimaginable bias . You will not find a direct connection, but the trigger has to come from somewhere doesn't it? It certainly is not coming from Michael Steele, the leader of the GOP? Or any other Republicans for that matter unless you count the Fox News team and Rush Limbaugh who represent the hardline right wingers and not Republicans in the purest sense.
     
  24. Jun 11, 2009 #23
    Both sides do this. To have freedom of speech you must allow it for everyone.
    Personally I think that there is an upside to allowing everyone to say what they wish regardless of how much I may find their ideas repulsive. The quickest and easiest way to show someone is a crazy nutbag idiot is to let them open their mouth and do it themself.
    The problem is that quite a few people like an underdog or to listen to the people they are told they should not listen to. When people attack Fox they lend it credibility. When a Fox News personality says that they are going to bring people the news from a perspective that no one else will because they don't like to hear the truth and then the people who do not agree with them rail and carry on about them being terrible biased liars who ought to be taken off the air it makes people wonder if these Fox news people are on to something. Its an old old trick. You make your opponents look like the bad guys, the liars, and the people with something to hide just by playing off of their empassioned hatred of you. Once you have drawn people in they will get defensive when ever they hear such attacks. Who responds well to being called an idiot and a dupe?
     
  25. Jun 11, 2009 #24

    Gokul43201

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    While I see no reason to directly blame Fox for this shooting, I have, in the past, (it's been a couple years since I've had cable) come across some popular Fox commentators (can't recall who, but if I had to guess, I'd say O'reilly and Hannity) openly supporting a hegemony exercised by White Christians in the US (and I wouldn't be the least surprised if Pat Buchanan had too). Anyway, I think that comes pretty close to supporting white supremacism, in principle. It may be difficult to dig up examples, but if you disagree with my observation, I'll give it a try.
     
  26. Jun 11, 2009 #25
    There is only a correlation in the first statement, not a causation. Atheism, for instance, cannot by definition imply mass murder, since it is the absence of a particular belief. On the contrary, Christianity is an ideology and can thus inspire mass murder. It is like arguing that Stalin was not bald, therefore having hair causes genocide and, indeed, all genocidal dictators have had hair somewhere on their body.

    Furthermore, Russia was hardly a socialist country. It was a totalitarian country that practiced the dictatorship of the proletariat. They where trying to reach the no-state, no-class, no-private property ideal of communism by using applied fascism.
     
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