Should I go back to grad school for physics after 4.5 years?

[pensive in PA]

In 2017 I graduated with a B.S. in physics and went on to a physics Ph.D. program in the fall. After six months, though, because of mental health problems I left grad school on a "medical leave of absence" from which I chose not to return in fall 2018. After job-searching for a while, I settled for a temp job doing office work, where I ended up being hired full-time and staying for 3 years. I finally left in June but have had, if anything, a harder time finding a job doing anything that interests me than I did in 2019. I've lately started wondering if I should instead work toward going to grad school again. I can think of many reasons both for and against this:

FOR:
+ I am still genuinely interested in physics. I spent 3 summers in undergrad working as a research assistant in two different groups, and I very much enjoyed it.
+ My mental health and support network are both much better now than they were in 2018.
+ Whereas before I was motivated largely by wanting to become respected and prove to myself and others that I really was as smart as I had always been told I was, now my motivation is mostly interest in physics. That is, if I have to do something for 40 hours a week for the next 40 years, working in physics seems like one of the most engaging and maybe even fulfilling ways to spend that time.

AGAINST:
- My path to grad school is more difficult and unsure than it was in 2017. How would I relearn what I need to know? Where would I apply? Who would I even ask for letters of recommendation? etc.
- I can't be sure that my interest in physics is enough to carry me through 5-7 years of the hardest work I've ever done. I mean, I say "interest" in physics because I'm not quite sure I can call it a "love" or a "passion". I honestly don't think there's any subject I'm "passionate" enough about that I'd do anything to work in it.
- When I went to grad school before, I didn't feel like I had any other option. I'm not sure that's not the case this time, since my options for interesting jobs seem very limited with just a B.S.
- I don't know what kind of physics I'd want to specialize in. The professors I worked for were in medium-energy particle and condensed matter physics, which both seem interesting enough, but I'm not sure I can rule anything out.
- I don't have a great idea of what I want to do with a higher degree other than generally "research".
- I may still be able to find a suitable job now, versus having to be in school again until my mid-30s.

I don't expect anyone to be able to give me a definite answer to my title question, but any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[hutchphd]

I finally left in June but have had, if anything, a harder time finding a job doing anything that interests me than I did in 2019.

Why did you leave?
More saliently why did you leave without having another job lined up (the grass is always greener..)
Did you look for physics jobs over the past 3.5 yrs? Send out feelers?

 

[pensive in PA]

Why did you leave?
More saliently why did you leave without having another job lined up (the grass is always greener..)
Did you look for physics jobs over the past 3.5 yrs? Send out feelers?

I live with my parents, and they moved away, so I did too. It wasn't the kind of job I could do remotely or transfer to a different location; and I had been thinking of quitting anyway to have more time/energy to look for something better.

I did apply to some jobs while I was still at my last one, but nothing came of it. I've applied to several dozen since leaving, and have even had a couple of interviews, but at this point I'm stuck waiting for new job listings to trickle in.

 

[bob012345]

The 4.5 year span probably seems like a long time to be away from physics for you but compared to spending the rest of your career doing something that interests you it is very short.

 

[CrysPhys]

The 4.5 year span probably seems like a long time to be away from physics for you but compared to spending the rest of your career doing something that interests you it is very short.

<<Emphasis added>> There is no assurance that completing a PhD program in physics will provide that.

 

[CrysPhys]

- I can't be sure that my interest in physics is enough to carry me through 5-7 years of the hardest work I've ever done. I mean, I say "interest" in physics because I'm not quite sure I can call it a "love" or a "passion". I honestly don't think there's any subject I'm "passionate" enough about that I'd do anything to work in it.

I'd say this is sufficient to nix any notion of pursuing a PhD in physics.

 

[Choppy]

Doing a PhD because it seems interesting when your other job prospects currently are not... I worry this will not carry you very far through the tough challenges when the work gets really boring, your experiment or code isn't working, or you have to pass up a fun vacation because you need to study for your candidacy exam. Or what are you going to do when you're part way through and a really interesting job opportunity arises?

Not knowing what you'd want to specialize in is also a flag for me. Particularly since you've already had a kick at the can. I worry that says you're intrigued by the idea of doing physics, but maybe haven't thought too deeply about what you'd really be jumping into. I don't think you need to know exactly what you want to do, but narrowing it down to a particular sub-field, have some ideas about projects and potential supervisors or programs you'd be interested in... that would should indicate you're a little more ready and not just at the "wondering what it would be like if" stage. Getting there might also help you to answer some other questions like how to prepare and how much of an obstacle this gap in your studies is going to be.

 

[bob012345]

A perfectly valid option is not going through a whole PhD but getting a masters in some form of engineering that interests you. For example, I was on track to get a physics PhD but ended up taking 3 semesters to get a masters in electrical engineering which really expanded the job prospects from a BS in physics. I ended up in the semiconductor industry doing device physics.

 

[pensive in PA]

I don't think you need to know exactly what you want to do, but narrowing it down to a particular sub-field, have some ideas about projects and potential supervisors or programs you'd be interested in...

I like this idea, but I don't know where I'd even get started! Asking seriously: should I pick a few high-ranking physics schools and read about some of the professors' work to see what interests me?

A perfectly valid option is not going through a whole PhD but getting a masters in some form of engineering that interests you. For example, I was on track to get a physics PhD but ended up taking 3 semesters to get a masters in electrical engineering which really expanded the job prospects from a BS in physics. I ended up in the semiconductor industry doing device physics.

This also sounds appealing, though it would still come with many of the same challenges as a Ph.D. program (especially getting into one). I assume it would mean more student loans, too. Still, something to consider.

 

[bob012345]

This also sounds appealing, though it would still come with many of the same challenges as a Ph.D. program (especially getting into one). I assume it would mean more student loans, too. Still, something to consider.

If you land a teaching assistant job tuition is usually waived along with a stipend which minimizes loan needs. Your easiest path to get in may be your old school since they know you were previously admitted to grad school. I'd call up the admissions office and talk to them.

 

[Choppy]

Asking seriously: should I pick a few high-ranking physics schools and read about some of the professors' work to see what interests me?

You should certainly be reading as much as you can on particular sub-fields that seem interesting.

One key aspect I notice in very successful students is that you can't hold them back from doing this. They're so driven they go out and do the reading on their own. Go to departmental seminars and colloquia. Join the astronomy club. Start an undergraduate journal club. Read review articles. Go to conferences if you have the opportunity.

 

[CrysPhys]

I like this idea, but I don't know where I'd even get started! Asking seriously: should I pick a few high-ranking physics schools and read about some of the professors' work to see what interests me?

You've got this all backwards. First you start with a field of research that interests you and that requires a PhD to pursue; then you decide whether your interest is strong enough for it to be worthwhile for you to pursue a PhD. You don't start with the premise that you want to pursue a PhD; then hunt for reasons to justify it.

 

[hutchphd]

There is no down side (other than psychological rejection) to applying to several "reasonably good" PhD programs with the internal supposition that your acceptance requires them to provide support. Don't expect miracles but don't sell yourself short. Many places accept more candidates than they will PhD because they want bodies to teach the freshmen. You will then need to have a good year or so to be on your way to the PhD. Otherwise terminal Masters, or ancillary program, or a wasted year.
Go for it. Some schools have deadlines of 15 Dec for subsequent fall enrollment so you dare not tarry. Do it now. Worry later.

 

[CrysPhys]

There is no down side (other than psychological rejection) to applying to several "reasonably good" PhD programs with the internal supposition that your acceptance requires them to provide support. Don't expect miracles but don't sell yourself short. Many places accept more candidates than they will PhD because they want bodies to teach the freshmen. You will then need to have a good year or so to be on your way to the PhD. Otherwise terminal Masters, or ancillary program, or a wasted year.
Go for it. Some schools have deadlines of 15 Dec for subsequent fall enrollment so you dare not tarry. Do it now. Worry later.

How does a student fill out at least a credible (even if not powerful and persuasive) application if he hasn't identified what he's interested in?

 

[Vanadium 50]

should I pick a few high-ranking physics schools

Uh...wait a second. Is your plan not just to go to grad school, but a top grad school? This is more restrictive, but perhaps more importantly, if you don't know what subfield you are interested in, how do you know what the top schools are in that subfield?

 

[pensive in PA]

Thank you for all the replies!

There is no down side (other than psychological rejection) to applying to several "reasonably good" PhD programs with the internal supposition that your acceptance requires them to provide support. Don't expect miracles but don't sell yourself short. Many places accept more candidates than they will PhD because they want bodies to teach the freshmen. You will then need to have a good year or so to be on your way to the PhD. Otherwise terminal Masters, or ancillary program, or a wasted year.
Go for it. Some schools have deadlines of 15 Dec for subsequent fall enrollment so you dare not tarry. Do it now. Worry later.

Wait, I'm not remotely ready to apply to grad school, not least because I don't know what I'd want to apply for.

Uh...wait a second. Is your plan not just to go to grad school, but a top grad school? This is more restrictive, but perhaps more importantly, if you don't know what subfield you are interested in, how do you know what the top schools are in that subfield?

No, the grad school I attended before wasn't elite, and I wouldn't expect to be accepted to even that same caliber were I to apply again. I just meant that if I need to look over research to see what sparks my interest, I may as well start at the top rather than, say, picking at random.

As for the other replies, I have a lot to think about now...Maybe the fact that I'm indecisive about going back to grad school is evidence enough that I shouldn't.

 

[hutchphd]

How does a student fill out at least a credible (even if not powerful and persuasive) application if he hasn't identified what he's interested in?

There is a fine line here between "fake it 'til you make it" and "just lying"
Sometimes the appropriate direction is simply moving forward with vigor. I think if 4.5 yrs of tangential work has not produced some self-knowledge for the OP then concerted omphaloskepsis is likely to produce only more delay. Delay is the enemy here, IMHO.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Delay is the enemy here, IMHO.

I don't think I agree. Waiting 4,5 years is bad, but 5.5 years isn't much worse. And starting down a 7-year (on average) path when you don't know where it's going is tough.

 

[CrysPhys]

I don't think I agree. Waiting 4,5 years is bad, but 5.5 years isn't much worse. And starting down a 7-year (on average) path when you don't know where it's going is tough.

^^Yes. This.^^ Someone with a BS Physics often has visions of doing exciting research. Then they find that the job opportunities available often aren't that exciting: they are not the lead researcher (principal investigator) they want to be; instead, e.g., they are a supporting technician or assistant, performing tasks prescribed by a lead researcher with a PhD [and this particular OP became an office worker instead]. They then become highly motivated to get a PhD so they can become a lead researcher in their field of interest. But, if they have no visions of exciting research, and even no field of interest, what's the motivation? If 4.5 yrs of drudge work has not yielded motivation, more reflection is merited.

 

[hutchphd]

By what mechanism will an epiphany occur from from "more reflection"? Passage of time will occur.
I still do not see the downside to taking action. After a year, if the decision was correct, he is a year ahead of the game with renewed self-esteem. If the decision was not correct he will be where he would have been after a year of "reflection" but with a much firmer grasp on the reality of his aspirations and proclivities. The best things in my life have arrived in ways I could not possibly have planned because I kept moving. Every really good idea I have had has arrived because I was in the game, not because of studied contemplation.

 

[Vanadium 50]

1. He can read papers and try and figure out what he wants to do, which feeds in to where he wants to go.
2. He didn't mention his pGRE, so presumably he didn't take it. A high score will open more doors, and a low score might be useful feedback about the feasibility of his plans.
3. He can get a job, so it doesn't look like grad school is just an alternative to unemployment.

All of these put him in a better position than he is in now.

 

[CrysPhys]

By what mechanism will an epiphany occur from from "more reflection"?

He may come to the realization that since he has no motivation to do research, then going down a path for ~ 7 yrs for a PhD in physics is not a wise choice. Choose a different path.

 

[CrysPhys]

OP: There is another thread in which a college senior majoring in physics is deciding whether to go for a PhD in physics. Here is one of my posts there which is also relevant here:

<<Emphasis added.>> There's the quandary. Going to grad school for a PhD in physics is not like going to med school for an MD. Once you complete your PhD in physics, there's no assurance that you'll be continuing in your specialty (or even in physics per se) for the rest of your life ... or even for more than a few years (e.g., beyond a postdoc or two). That's especially true if you specialize in high-energy theory.

That's why my perspective is that a PhD in physics needs to be satisfying, and have value, as an end goal in and of itself, not merely as a means to an end. You learn a set of skills and complete one or more research projects. Then you move on. Maybe you will continue in physics research. Maybe you will not.

You can call it passion, you can call it a calling ... but you need to have internal drive and motivation to make a PhD physics program viable. To expand on one of my previous post, it's perfectly OK for a high-school grad to spend the first one or two years in undergrad college to explore different subjects and "find himself". But if you enter grad school to find yourself, you will likely lose yourself.

-----------------------

In general terms, when you seek to accomplish a task, there is a planning phase and an execution phase. [And note: This presumes that you've properly defined the task in the first place.] How much time you should spend in the planning phase depends on a variety of factors; primarily, the complexity of the task, the total time and resources available to complete the task, prior experience with similar tasks, and the consequences of failure to complete the task.

There are instances in which a spirit of adventure and a "Just Do It!" attitude are appropriate; there are instances in which they are reckless or foolhardy. There are instances in which deliberate, careful planning is prudent; there are instances in which it leads to unnecessary delay (or, in the worst extreme, analysis paralysis).

You should pause to reflect whether you've defined your task properly. And, if so, consider what is the appropriate duration of the planning phase.

 

[mpresic3]

I do not know if employment in a government lab is an option. I know of colleagues with a Bachelors in a STEM field, who work 40 hours a week and do physics / STEM related work. I think these can be found in the USAjobs (?) website.

For many of these jobs, you may need to be able to obtain a security clearance. Some organizations may hire before the process is complete, though, pending successful completion.

Getting a PhD is a guarantee that you will work more than 40 hours a week. Like a medical doctor, you will always be busy. Even in a govt, lab, PhD's are called upon (to do a good job, anyway) to work longer, and yet they are only paid for 40 hours a week. I suspect in academia or other labs, the situation is similar.

I even know of colleagues that started work to get their foot in the door, and later go to graduate school to obtain a doctorate. This took many more years than going straight through but they were supported for some of the way.

I found getting a job is much harder than getting into physics graduate school. Why not. Your employer is looking at a lifetime committment. Alternatively, a graduate school can and will cut you loose in as little as one-semester (Believe me, this is possible, I came in with a masters so I had only one try at a qualifying exam, after simultaneously taking classes that were advanced electives in solid state and nuclear physics, and they were not even the core classes that were tested on the exam). The graduate school will almost never give you more that 5-10 years.

 

[dlgoff]

Thank goodness my university offered Engineering Physics.

 

[StatGuy2000]

1. He can read papers and try and figure out what he wants to do, which feeds in to where he wants to go.
2. He didn't mention his pGRE, so presumably he didn't take it. A high score will open more doors, and a low score might be useful feedback about the feasibility of his plans.
3. He can get a job, so it doesn't look like grad school is just an alternative to unemployment.

All of these put him in a better position than he is in now.

Your comment #3 is assuming that the OP can get a job given their current skillset -- a bachelor's in physics, and 3 years of experience doing office work.

Remember, the OP did not specify what kind of work this was, or what skills were involved (or what skills were developed).

Also, remember the following quote: "I finally left in June but have had, if anything, a harder time finding a job doing anything that interests me than I did in 2019." It is entirely possible that the OP does not have any skills that a current employer would value.

 

[StatGuy2000]

To the OP:

I have some questions for you.

Besides simply having an interest in physics, what specifically are you interested in? What kinds of jobs do you ultimately want to have?

Are you interested in working with computers and software? Are you more a "hands-on" type of person? Or are you more interested in theoretical interests/mathematical interests? Are you interested in teaching? Are you interested in physics-related occupations like engineering?

What areas of physics are you most interested in? For example, are you interested in condensed matter physics (the physics of the macroscopic world)? In quantum optics? In high-energy physics? In astrophysics? In biophysics?

You have been very vague about what your interests are, so it is difficult for anyone here on PF to offer you more concrete advice.

 

[Vanadium 50]

3 is assuming that the OP can get a job

The unemployment rate in the US is 3.7%. With a bachelors degree or higher, it's 1.9%.

If he can't land a job, how will he succeed in the far more competitive search for a seat in grad school?

 

[pensive in PA]

Besides simply having an interest in physics, what specifically are you interested in? What kinds of jobs do you ultimately want to have?

I'd like to do some kind of experimental research; whether that's as a PI or for a university, company, or government isn't especially important.

Are you interested in working with computers and software? Are you more a "hands-on" type of person? Or are you more interested in theoretical interests/mathematical interests? Are you interested in teaching? Are you interested in physics-related occupations like engineering?

Theoretical/simulated physics is neat but I'm ultimately more interested in observation. I could see myself teaching if it weren't the main job (e.g. how university professors teach while doing research, not that I expect to ever become a professor). Engineering isn't very appealing to me, except maybe electrical engineering.

What areas of physics are you most interested in? For example, are you interested in condensed matter physics (the physics of the macroscopic world)? In quantum optics? In high-energy physics? In astrophysics? In biophysics?

I tried skimming articles on arXiv today, and the only areas I think I can rule out are astro- and biophysics. I don't feel like I know enough about the other fields to be sure which one I'd want to work in. I did fall down a bit of a rabbit hole looking up terminology, but I still can't be sure I have the kind of passion needed to sustain me through grad school. For what it's worth, the prospect of working in physics research excites me more than any other job (except maybe Japanese localization, which is so far afield I've barely considered it).

Anyway, in case it's important: my office job was mailing medical claims to insurers (essentially, stapling and folding papers and putting them in envelopes) and dealing with the claims which were returned as undeliverable. It paid alright as far as menial jobs go but it's been hard to spin as any kind of useful experience.