1. Limited time only! Sign up for a free 30min personal tutor trial with Chegg Tutors
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Other Should I leave Italy?

  1. Nov 23, 2017 #1
    Hi guys.
    I'm going to write about my experience in Italy, about how is the situation, asking if in your opinion I have to leave this country and study abroad, or work abroad.

    In order to create a good thread i'm going to summarize the main problem of my life here, to know if there are problem related only to my country or if there are problems I can find everywhere, and where should I find better conditions.

    1) The main problem in my opinion is the fact that there are very low salaries for young people that want to create their own life, compared to the cost of living.
    The low salaries affect every kind of job, from the ones that doesn't requires a qualification to the others that need a degree.
    https://www.thelocal.it/20160217/young-italian-workers-are-among-the-worst-paid-in-europe

    2) There are very few jobs available for people that have a major.
    There is a huge risk to get a job and be overqualified.
    We life in a situation that is called "austerity" I don't think USA did ever lived in this kind of condition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity.
    This means there are few money for infrastructure, few money for schools, and obviously very very few money for research, I will say that there isn't research due to the lack of labs with tools.
    This means that the government try to pay only the indispensable workers, like doctors.
    They are the only one that have a good salary, and this is why every year more then 60.000 of students try to enter in the med school, they are a lots considering that the population of italy is of 60 millions.
    The second category of workers that find a job is the engineering field, cause also them are necessary, but they are not paid very well, because there aren't many great companies, and very few of this are big companies in terms of how much employers they have.
    They are usually paid 1500 euros per month, that is not so great compared to others countries of the world.

    There are a lots of companies runs by people that didn't go to the high school, but earn a lots of money.
    This people due to the lack of education don't know what means promotion or giving to good worked bonuses.

    PS. In my country computer scientist aren't considered engineers and they don't find good job, for the fact that in Italy there is much requires of computer scientists.

    3) Italy has a very old population, has more people over 65 that under 15, most of the child are from immigrants, while italians of 30 years old don't have money to build a family and get married, and most of them have a child when they are 40 years old.
    This means that not many people buy houses, not many people buy new cars, not many people buy everything, so the economy suffer, and there aren't jobs because there is no need to produce or build this things.

    4) University doesn't give to the students soft skills.https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/09/italy-spain-graduates-skills-oecd-report-education
    We don't have a culture about job interviews, CV, skills, Linden profiles, people is hired only that to relationship and recommendations, is hard to find a job without knowing no one.
    University teach only theory and no skills required by the companies.
    An average student basically go to the university and take notes of what the professor says, doing nothing else then listening the lessons.
    He get home, he study and again the next day.
    After there is the exam, he study by himself, pass the exam and go ahead learning only theory, there aren't any extra courses.
    It's like high school, I would say that there is no difference.
    Maybe there are students that know very well how to design a motor for a car, but they have no idea about how to apply of look for a job.
    Italian university life is like a bubble, you have no contact with the real world.

    5)The government and the politicians made a disaster in the last 20 years, and ruined a country that use to work very good.
    I have a friend which her father is the major of a city near mine.
    This major was arrested for corruption and for stolen public money putting them in his pocket.

    6) This created a generation of frustrated youth people that has no ambition for the future and just live their life, asking money to their grandparents, that give their board.
    I have friend that was very good at schools but he get depressed and didn't go to the university for this reason.
    The main problem is that this young people ( included my friends) don't want to do nothing to change the future, and this is the worst part, cause everyone can face a difficult situation in life but the bad thing is when someone do nothing to change it.



    P.S.S I live in a small city of less then 1000 people, every for stupid stuff like buying bread I have to take the car and go to the nearest small city.

    Thanks to all those users that had the patience to read my thread.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 24, 2017 #2
    Of course, only you can answer this question. What I recommend is that you setup a decision matrix to help you formalize the decision-making process. The columns are the various options under consideration: Stay in Italy, Go to US, Go to Canada, Go to UK, Go to Germany, .... I know you've ruled out Germany, because you don't know German, but perhaps you should just keep it on the list for now. The rows are the various parameters of significance to you, e.g.: Cost, Language Difficulties, Leaving Family and Friends (perhaps for extended periods), Educational Opportunities, Future Career Opportunities, .... If you want to get fancy, you can assign different weights to each parameter, but I suggest that you keep it simple, at least initially.

    As side comments:

    (1) You've posted many threads concerning the effect of various parameters (such as age, major, university ...) on career opportunities. Remember, with some exceptions, no single parameter is dispositive. Employers too setup their own decision matrix (with various parameters and various weights accorded to each parameter) when evaluating candidates.

    (2) With some exceptions, even if the decision you make turns out not to be what you had hoped for, the consequences usually are not irreparable.

    (3) Regardless of how much planning you do, don't overlook the significance of serendipity. Flexibility and adaptability are paramount.
     
  4. Nov 24, 2017 #3

    fresh_42

    Staff: Mentor

    My personal impression on the many posts you've made so far is, that you are quite loaded with really many prejudices and assumptions on how stuff works. I predict that it is this, which will stand in your way sooner or later, regardless where you are, study or work. Despite the fact that it is almost impossible to know at your age, it is also mostly simply not true, as specific situations rarely follow single rules. Someone had the advice "get a degree and find a job". There is much truth to it. Start to achieve something before you talk about general insights on societies, countries, universities and employees. Life is much more complicated than it could be described by common places.
     
  5. Nov 24, 2017 #4
    I thing that you want to say that I'm taking in consideration to many aspects before start to do something, or that maybe I'm worried because I read the stuff I wrote on a newspaper and I didn't face the situation, or maybe that I'm too young and I just post stuff I read on some local newspaper, without knowing the truth.
    Or maybe you think that the best solution is just start a random university and do it.
    I appreciate your help, but I want to say that I saw with my eyes the situation I wrote before, and I know a lots of people that is in a dramatic situation.

    I have a neighbor that has a bachelor's and a master degree in literature with magna cum laude, with lost of award and do you know what she do every day?
    She walk on the street listening music, doing nothing all the day, living with the money from his dad, she won't have a job, she won't have a house or a family or a husband..because she won't have the money.

    Another neighbor has a bachelor's degree, a master degree and a PhD degree in Biology and do you know how much money she earn per month ?
    800 euros, she is a researcher at the university.
    Every day she took the train and travel 3 hours per day to arrive at work, because her salary is so low that she can't live near the university....

    A guy that work in a restaurant as a waiter makes more money, about 1600 in a month....

    There are good example?
    Oh yes, close to me live a person that works as a plumber and make 50.000 euros per year, have 1 big house and 3 nice cars.

    All this people suggested to me that if i'm interested in Science or Humanities Italy is not a good place, and is better to find a job that doesn't requires a degree.

    I personally want to go to the university, I want to get a degree, but I want to see how my major help me to build my life and have a family, which maybe it's normal in other countries.
    I'm just used by the situation, because I feel myself in a cage, that's the issue.
    I just want to have a carrier, a normal carrier, while in this moment is hard also to find a basic jobs also as a tutor, because there are a lots of engineers that work as a tutor of math with students of 12-13 years old....
     
  6. Nov 24, 2017 #5

    fresh_42

    Staff: Mentor

    No. I'm saying you're making far too many assumptions on everything. Even on those subjects you come here to ask for, you already seem to have an answer in mind and apparently disregard anybody who's trying to correct this answer. A continent cannot be judged by one country, a country cannot be judged by one city, a city cannot be judged by a university, job markets cannot be judged by a few examples, and persons cannot be judged on basically any single valued variable. I've learnt, that Italy doesn't allow a double enrollment and that there are attempts to change this. Anything else is probably less specific to Italy than to any other developed (western) country. Of course there is a different mentality, but this is even true inside Italy or any other bigger country.

    You've been asking, whether you should leave Italy. My answer is: Yes. Abroad is always a good idea, but not too early, in my opinion. Possibly after you earned your undergraduate degree. But this has nothing to do with Italy or because I think it's bad. It has to do with the fact, that any experiences abroad are valuable on their own and I would answer with "yes" regardless where someone grew up. It is always a good idea, if possible. You also asked about certain universities or cities. Now, what I find interesting doesn't necessarily apply to you. I could imagine that I wouldn't feel very comfortable in Rome, whereas I like Firenze (apart from the many tourists, but this isn't better in Rome). Another good example is London versus Paris versus Berlin. They are really comparable, but have a completely different flair. I'd find it easier to live in London, but I'd feel better in Paris, and do not like Berlin at all. So what does that mean to you? Nothing. So anybody's favors are of little use for you personally. You'll have to make your own experiences. Another important hint is, that yourself will not change. Regardless where life is putting you, you carry the experiences, prejudices, knowledge, ignorance and personal skills with you. At the very least you could get rid of the prejudices. Give the new a chance to be different than you thought. The math isn't easier in the US, France, UK or Italy.
     
  7. Nov 24, 2017 #6

    symbolipoint

    User Avatar
    Homework Helper
    Education Advisor
    Gold Member

    Grands, along with some of what I did not quote from your post, now you more clearly understand a suggestion for something practical in which to earn a degree. Engineering so you may solve problems or design equipment or instrument; Computer Science if you are do things which might include software design or programming; MAYBE vocational training instead, maybe like your plumber friend, who as you find, is earning good income; and as for your other friend with a degree in Literature, in case the education were geared enough toward Linguistics and Languages, that friend might be qualified (depending on what is required for eligibility where you are) to teach a language, especially to people who want to learn whichever language your friend could teach - is it Italian? Maybe a different language? One might imagine that your Literature friend may have less limitations than believed.
     
  8. Nov 24, 2017 #7

    Mark44

    Staff: Mentor

    Yes, people in the U.S. lived in austere conditions during most of the 1930s -- it was called The Depression. It started in the U.S., then spread to Europe and elsewhere. My parents lived through this time, with my father leaving college because of it.
     
  9. Nov 24, 2017 #8
    Do you mean that I will not change if I will make new experiences, or if I will visit new cities?

    Mine thread is not about me, or about what I have to do, but it's about the country I live in.

    I seriously don't understand if with your last thread you wanted to say that Italy is not that bad and that I should accept the idea of living in this country.
    Is it?
    I understand that a person can feel comfortable in a city rather then another one, but this is not about how much I live a city, but about how much opportunities that city have.
    I read some article foe The Economist, I don't know if they are relevant, but are almost all like this https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=t...AUICigB&biw=1440&bih=839#imgrc=lyh3KCS6SISNPM: or like this http://www.voxeurop.eu/files/130215economist.jpg.
    I know that not all the cities are the same, and I agree with this, but all the city of a country have the same taxes, so is hard to create a startup in Rome as in Florence or in Turin, because you have to payback to the State 50% of your income.

    P.S. I forgot to manton that I lived a part of my life also in another country, but I don't think this is relevant.
     
  10. Nov 24, 2017 #9

    fresh_42

    Staff: Mentor

    Hopefully you will. But your basic characteristics will probably not change: How you get along with people, how you deal with new situations, what's easy, what's hard.
    Yes, but based on some examples rather than statistics. Especially Italy is so different between Merano and Parlermo, that any sentence, which starts with "In Italy ..." raises my doubts. Not even the food is the same!
    I said, that the requirements don't change a lot. Science is the same and the way to it may have different hurdles as exams or tests, but that's it. General relativity isn't easier because you can read Einstein's paper in German, neither is classical physics, just because Galileo was Italian. The ability to learn is something which doesn't change by location. And Italy is as good as any modern country to learn the basics in mathematics, physics or engineering. A good teacher is much more important than his passport.
    One step after the other. Who says you'll have to stay where you've studied? And how do you know the parameters won't change during this period? And taxes are probably always too high for whom is taxed. You are right, that there are places where it is easier to raise venture capital. But before you start with this, you'll have to do a lot of work prior to it. I very much doubt that anyone can plan his life in such a detail.
    It can be relevant, depending on how old you were and which country it was. E.g. I wouldn't compare Saudi-Arabia and Italy, not even Corsica with France. And San Marino doesn't count either.
     
  11. Nov 24, 2017 #10
    The salary in the research and teaching field are the same everywhere.
    Also for those people that work in public administration, plus in the south of Italy there are huge problem of work, in Sicily only 22% of people work in the private sector, because there are no companies that want to invest there.

    Plus you have to pay the same taxes, no matter where you leave.

    Yes, but not all the universities has good labs.
    Maybe for math there is no need, but for physics, design or engineering you need good tools and working labs.

    The main problem about italian university is that doesn't teach the so called softs skills.
    Have you ever heard about them?

    Live is short, and Italy had this problem of youth unemployment also before 2008, and this because is not only a economical problem, but also a cultural one.
    Italy don't have a culture about job and big companies, and it's hard to believe it will happens.

    Hungary, Slovenia, Austria.
    I lied the last one, even thought was very expensive.

    In the country I lived/visitated there was a more opening mind that wasn't locked in their own culture, but was more open to the new opportunities, and I met very young people that started their own business with no problems and taxes like the ones that there are in Italy
     
  12. Nov 24, 2017 #11

    Vanadium 50

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor

    After looking at many of your messages, I sense a theme: you ask a question, you get an answer, and then you argue that the answer is wrong. Apart from driving everyone who is trying to help you crazy, such an attitude is not conducive to success at university. I question whether you're ready for it, and whether you are likely to get a lot out of that. Have you considered doing something else after college and entering university after you have gained some maturity and readiness? Historically, the military has served this function for thousands of young men and women.
     
  13. Nov 24, 2017 #12

    fresh_42

    Staff: Mentor

    Yes, have you? You're constantly taught the difference between "to hear / to read" and "to listen", but I cannot see any effort.
     
  14. Nov 24, 2017 #13

    mathwonk

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    You seem discouraged and maybe with valid reason. Yes life is difficult and there are many obstacles to finding fulfillment. I don’t know any formula that guarantees a comfortable income in any country. But to have a satisfying life, I think it helps if you are passionate about some goal, enough to try to overcome obstacles to achieve it. As to leaving Italy, that may be useful for training, but as a permanent move it depends on many factors. Italy is physically beautiful, historically magnificent, with a tradition of friendly hospitable people, delicious food and wine, and enjoys good weather. Corruption and work restrictions and inefficiency of course can make life hard. But America has its problems too.

    So I suggest you identify a goal, connected to your real deep interest. It will help if the goal is one that can be enjoyed for itself, somewhat independent of how much money it will bring in. I.e. it is more promising if just carrying out a specific activity makes you happy, even if it does not make you wealthy. If you have such a goal, then decide where you can best train for it, and go there, work hard toward it and see where it takes you.

    I myself wanted to be a mathematician, and was willing to live on very little just to be around people who could teach me. At age 25 I was unloading 200 pound pieces of meat from trucks to earn $600/month (which seemed like a lot), and driving a $100 VW with holes in the floor. Now 50 years later, I have spent years enjoying doing math, and as a bonus I have a car that actually works and own my own home! But as a good friend told me, before you can realize your goal, first you have to have one. Good luck, what others have done, you too can do.

    PS: I have many Italian friends. Here is one, who I think trained partly in the US:

    http://www.convegnocollino.unito.it/
     
  15. Nov 25, 2017 #14

    ISamson

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    From a foreigner's point of view, Italy is a beautiful country, with historically beautiful universities.
    Many great minds studied, lived and conducted research in Italy. I have (4 years ago) completed the first three years of primary school in Italy and remember all the things perfectly well and then we left to come here to Australia. I LOVED the education in Italy. Challenging and interesting right from the beginning, pre-primary. The teachers were outstanding. They were nice and strict when needed, taught successfully and interestingly well, and they were exceptional friends. The schools were old, but the hearts of them, the teachers and students, made them a loving and fun environment. I have Italian friends there in Perth, and they all went to schools in Rome, Venice, and now they found good and high-paid work overseas, here in Australia. I still love Italy four years after and wish to go back there to study at university some day... (Would this be a good decision?)

    As great as this might sound, all the Italians are fleeing from such a historically rich place, with outstanding education and, especially, community.

    We lived in an apartment block in Italy. We knew ALL the people in the block and were real friends. We went to the church every Sunday and we were friends with all the regular visitors of the church. The people were just nice.

    I love Italy and hope to visit this beautiful country again.

    Thank you.
     
  16. Nov 25, 2017 #15

    ISamson

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    However, I believe that is you want more accepted and strong education, Italy is, unfortunately (:mad:) not the best place. For that you have to go to US...
     
  17. Nov 25, 2017 #16
    It seems to me to be foolhardy for any of us, as outsiders, to tell an Italian whether or not he should leave Italy. We cannot possibly understand or properly appreciate the ties you have to your country or the real motivations you might have for leaving. This is a highly personal decision, one that the OP must make entirely for himself.
     
  18. Nov 25, 2017 #17
    Italy is not my country, I didn't born here.

    I have friends that have leaved italy because they couldn't find a job with/without a major.
    My father want to leave Italy and go in another country where life cost less, and obviously there are no high conditions.
    His salary, and general salaries decrease since 2008, because we live in austerity, that means that you earn enough money to survive and do nothing more, no investment, no new companies, no new jobs, no risks, all have to stay how it is now, in order to prevent a bigger financial catastrofe.
    You can't buy a house, you have to pay the rent.
    Indeed I consider myself a foreign in Italy.

    Banks doesn't give money to those people that are 30 , want to buy a home, and have a regular job, because they don't have high salary and it's not their fault.
    I personally don't have a house here, so I don't have something to lose.

    Like I said before, in Italy you are obliged to work in the sanitary system in order to get a decent salary, because is a salary that come from the government.

    The country that seems to assure me a better future in UE is Germany and others country of North Europe, but I don't understand a work of german.
    They have university on the Top 100, which is good IMHO, unlucky there don't have courses in english.
    A good country could be UK, but we have the issue with the Brexit, I know italians that had to come back.
     
  19. Nov 25, 2017 #18

    Mark44

    Staff: Mentor

    Added the word in bold:
    @Grands, in the end, only you can decide whether you should stay or you should leave Italy.

    Thread closed.
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook