Should I Leave Physics? Deciding Between a Career in Physics & Engineering

[pl4y75]

I am currently in the second year of a math and physics degree. I like physics, I like math, I love learning, and I seem to be quite good at all of the above. I get good grades, and I have secured an interesting job in a lab this summer and look forward to the courses I will get to take in the coming years and the people I will get to work with.

However, I have had serious doubts as to whether I really want to be a physicist. What I am afraid of is the many years of intense graduate school that I might not enjoy and the many years of wandering around the world between low-paying and high stress postdoc positions. I am afraid of the intense competition for tenure track positions and the possibility that I won't be good enough and will just burn out after I have spent 10+ years being a lab monkey. I know a lot of people go this route and like it despite the hard work, but I am not sure if I love doing science enough to put myself through that. My mind wanders a lot. Sometimes I think "wow, this stuff is amazing I want to spend my life studying this no matter what" and then my mind goes to something else for a while and I find myself doubting that I would have the focus to be a good, happy scientist. And if I don't go to graduate school, then what? I would be looking for engineer's jobs but at an extreme disadvantage.

So...I have been scrambling for the past few months to secure a transfer to Electrical Engineering. I have it worked out such that now, all I need to do is press the button, and I will be a 2nd year Electrical Engineering student next Fall. I even chose my research job this summer such that it would have applications to things electrical engineers might work on. I did this because it seems to me that there is a lot more job security for engineers. They graduate knowing that they have a career that pays relatively well, allows them to have a life outside of it, and still allows them to research interesting things.

If the job security question wasn't an issue, I would stay in physics in a heartbeat, but I am afraid that if by the end of this degree I decide I cannot go the graduate school route, that I will have no job prospects. However, engineering would add a year to my degree (which would mean I will have stayed in school for 6 years if I do coop), and the classes wouldn't be as interesting.
Thanks in advance for any input.

EDIT: I should also add that I live in Canada, where there is a big legal difference between someone with a PEng and someone just working as an engineer in industry.

 

[windsupernova]

I am in the same situation, but I do think that if you like it enough then there is no reason to quit.

 

[Choppy]

This conundrum comes up around here often. One thing I feel that's important in such a decision is that the student weigh perception against reality.

In my opinion, it's not as difficult as some would have you believe for physics graduates to get jobs. What I might suggest is that you do some research before making the decision. Many universities keep their own statistics on student employment. You may also want to check out the AIP statistics. I suspect you'll find that most physics graduates do quite well, even with just a bachelor's degree.

The major hurdle, which in my opinion is what promotes anecdotal evidence to the contrary, is that employers will rarely advertise that they are seeking physics graduates. This contrasts significantly with the engineering profession, where employers will advertise for a specific degree.

That being said, I won't sugar coat anything. Graduate work is hard. Post-doctoral work is hard. Academia is competative. Ultimately, to be really successful with a physics background you have to take more responsibility for your own destiny than you do in other professions.

 

[Overkill777]

Go into Engineering. You still use physics principles and math, and you have the advantage of actually being employable.

I am an Engineering Physics major graduating next month and looking for jobs. Most people hiring don't have any idea what physics is. My biggest mistake was not transferring to a real engineering degree like Mechanical, Electrical, or Civil.

If you get a physics bachelors degree you can still go to grad school for other types of engineering, but you will have to take some core undergrad classes first. It's better to just get a BS in the area in the first place.

Engineering, Computer Science, Chemistry, Information Technology, almost anything is better than physics for employment.

And it really is sad because physics is the greatest.

 

[physics girl phd]

EDIT: I should also add that I live in Canada, where there is a big legal difference between someone with a PEng and someone just working as an engineer in industry.

I think this is a good point to consider as you make your decision.

 

[JaWiB]

So are you sure you'll like EE? Personally, that's the only branch of engineering I've been exposed to that I don't really like.

 

[jalalmalo]

Just a thought:
what if u gruaduate in nanophysics, since its new, wouldn't that give u more oppotunities for work

 

[whybother]

If you, or anyone, is scrambling for a transfer, it probably means you don't like what you are in enough. Honestly, if you have doubts now, get out now - they hardly ever go away, and usually, they just get worse. Transfering will be a smart move for you because you can still do physics and math recreationally as an peng.

 

[jalalmalo]

Don't missunderstand me, I love physics and don't have any doubts about it. I also love the good life, which I've missed out on for so long. Havings depts and counting coins is not something I can just wave away. So that's why I'm wandering if a physicist can have an interesting job at a company that works with nanophysics, instead of being stuck at a faculty for 10 years or so researching to become a proffessor.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think a couple of points are in order.

One is that there is a perception that someone with a BS in physics should be able to get a job as an engineer. I don't know how this got started, but my advice is that if you want a job as an engineer, get a degree in engineering.

There are an order of magnitude more engineering degrees awarded than physics degrees. It makes sense that there are more engineering positions advertised than physics positions. And while the number of jobs a physics BS could do is large, the number where one must have a physics BS is small.

Another is that a BS in physics doesn't make one a physicist any more than a BA in history makes one a historian, or a BA/BS in economics makes one an economist. It's not realistic to expect to be able to do independent research fresh out of college.

Plenty of people get jobs in industry that were not what they majored in. Looking at some friends of mine: I know a psychology major in HR. A classical languages major in politics. A math major in sales. A history major in administration. A music major in IT. A

Finally a college degree makes one an educated person - it is not a union card nor a meal ticket.

 

[ZapperZ]

We get this type of question very frequently, and I'm sure it has been addressed multiple times. So here it is again, and I will bring out two very important issues that hasn't been dealt with directly here.

1. What you specialize in makes a difference in your employability.

Anyone who has been on here long enough can tell that you that I've mentioned this a few times. I have personally seen a friend who majored in theoretical elementary particle physics abandoning his ambition to work in academia and instead went back to get a teaching credential, while another friends who majored in experimental condensed matter physics with expertise in laser ablation technique getting recruited by Xerox even before she finished her thesis defense! All of this occurring around the same time!

We seldom hear medical physicist or material scientists either looking for jobs, or out without a job for a long time. These degrees have a larger range of employability beyond just academia or research labs. They are employable in many areas of industries and private sectors as well! What you go into and what skills you acquire while you went through your college program is vital in determining what kinds of jobs that are available to you after you graduate. This fact cannot be over emphasized strongly enough.

2. The future job outlook.

The job situation now can easily be quite different than what it will be when you graduate. It is almost foolish to predict such things, and if you are just starting college and somehow think that the outlook is going to be the same, then you are setting yourself up for a major disappointment. I cringe when I see kids, some time still in high school, almost making definite plans based on what they see now ("Oh, nanotechnology is HOT now!"), without realizing that it will be at least 4 year before they venture into the job market, and a LOT of things can change very rapidly during that time.

The risk in having that tightly-focused ambition is that you tend to not participate in other areas and other projects that may feel way out of that focused area, but could easily expand your skill, and could easily be something that increases your employability later. One just cannot predict how things are going to change, especially over that time period.

Zz.

 

[csprof2000]

Electrical engineering? Well, different strokes, I guess...

What will you do at the end of next year, if you don't like EE or are doing poorly in it?

 

[subSquall]

You'll be surprised at electrical, there's a lot more math and physics in the courses than you'd think. Physics is awesome, but EE will give you a much bigger leg up in finding opportunities for yourself. If you love math and physics you'll really like controls engineering.

The Subversive Guide to Engineering
Latest Post: Grades vs. Effort: The Engineering S-Curve
http://subversiveguidetoeng.blogspot.com/

 

[akshaythegeek]

Well well, I love physics..:) I had done civil engineering at my bachelors level...then i worked with computer industry as a programmer fr 2 year .. now i am in geophysics :) doing my master ...:) ...oha i really don't know where i am going

 

[jasoncawley]

I just switched from physics to engineering, and oh boy am I glad I did! Physics was taking me nowhere except to a life of poverty and being an eternal post-doc or sessional (the ever-increasing part-time faculty that get paid a sixth of what tenured faculty make and work twice as much).

By the way, anyone who says to do what you love and not consider the money is an idiot. Wise up people! Money is definitely a factor; indeed, it is not the factor but it is a factor.

 

[Winzer]

I am an engineering physics major and I have enjoyed my three years. I was thinking of going all the way with physics but the way I am feeling right now I need to take a break from it. Instead I will be doing a MS in Nuclear Engineering. I want to work in industry for a while then I'll decide if I want to go back. I am not going to lie, the money in Nuclear is suppose to be pretty good.

What about majoring in EE and physics with a minor in math? That's a pretty good back up plan.
Remember: Money isn't everything. But it is MOST things.

 

[jalalmalo]

I just switched from physics to engineering, and oh boy am I glad I did! Physics was taking me nowhere except to a life of poverty and being an eternal post-doc or sessional (the ever-increasing part-time faculty that get paid a sixth of what tenured faculty make and work twice as much).

By the way, anyone who says to do what you love and not consider the money is an idiot. Wise up people! Money is definitely a factor; indeed, it is not the factor but it is a factor.

May I ask where u live

 

[jasoncawley]

May I ask where u live

Like the op, I too live in Canada.

 

[jalalmalo]

Like the op, I too live in Canada.

the reason why I'm asking where u from is that I want to know if there is a difference between different countries. I for instance live in sweden and here the major companies first and foremost employes engineers rather then physicists.

 

[nrqed]

We get this type of question very frequently, and I'm sure it has been addressed multiple times. So here it is again, and I will bring out two very important issues that hasn't been dealt with directly here.

1. What you specialize in makes a difference in your employability.

Anyone who has been on here long enough can tell that you that I've mentioned this a few times. I have personally seen a friend who majored in theoretical elementary particle physics abandoning his ambition to work in academia and instead went back to get a teaching credential, while another friends who majored in experimental condensed matter physics with expertise in laser ablation technique getting recruited by Xerox even before she finished her thesis defense! All of this occurring around the same time!

Good point.

I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics (from a very well known US university) and a postdoc but am unemployed now. I will soon be looking for a job delivering pizzas or washing dishes in a restaurant. But I have no regrets, I prefer to have challenged my mind and learned a lot than having made lots of money to buy a house, a fancy car and other stuff.

 

[Theelectricchild]

Good point.

I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics (from a very well known US university) and a postdoc but am unemployed now. I will soon be looking for a job delivering pizzas or washing dishes in a restaurant. But I have no regrets, I prefer to have challenged my mind and learned a lot than having made lots of money to buy a house, a fancy car and other stuff.

I am very happy to read a post from someone with this kind of attitude. I am sure that with your credentials you will find yourself back in a position that you will be passionate about in no time.

 

[math_04]

Yea, with a degree in Physics, you can end up working in any kind of industry; telecommunications, lecturing, school teacher, astronomer etc. As nrqed said, learning physics is always a pleasant and rewarding experience, the knowledge gained is astounding and you learn to appreciate nature a bit more. I would advise though, if you are going into something other than a lab assistant or school teacher to probably get a masters degree or PhD.

 

[3dfan]

My advise - do not leave if the reason that study course is hard but you likr physics, leave only if you don't like physics as a discipline itself

 

[DarrenM]

Good point.

I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics (from a very well known US university) and a postdoc but am unemployed now. I will soon be looking for a job delivering pizzas or washing dishes in a restaurant. But I have no regrets, I prefer to have challenged my mind and learned a lot than having made lots of money to buy a house, a fancy car and other stuff.

I assure you that I don't mean to be disparaging, but the thought of obtaining a PhD (the hard work, the financial expense, the amount of time and energy sacrificed) and then... delivering pizza? Or washing dishes? I could have done either one of those things straight out of high school; hell, I could have dropped out of high school and done those things. I am not nearly zen enough to accept something like that with the equanimity that you seem to have.

At the risk of being rude by prying into your business, may I ask you to elaborate on those circumstances? As a person whose goals include a PhD the thought of struggling (futilely) to find a job at the terminus of that endeavor... that's frightening. I am aware, as has been mentioned on this forum, that a graduate degree is not a meal-ticket, but it should at least indicate a level of education and competence that would, I'd think, qualify one for a higher level of employment.

 

[JaWiB]

I am aware, as has been mentioned on this forum, that a graduate degree is not a meal-ticket, but it should at least indicate a level of education and competence that would, I'd think, qualify one for a higher level of employment.

For most PhD's this is true, but we all know that theoretical particle physics is pretty much a joke.

 

[DukeofDuke]

I am currently in the second year of a math and physics degree. I like physics, I like math, I love learning, and I seem to be quite good at all of the above. I get good grades, and I have secured an interesting job in a lab this summer and look forward to the courses I will get to take in the coming years and the people I will get to work with.

However, I have had serious doubts as to whether I really want to be a physicist. What I am afraid of is the many years of intense graduate school that I might not enjoy and the many years of wandering around the world between low-paying and high stress postdoc positions. I am afraid of the intense competition for tenure track positions and the possibility that I won't be good enough and will just burn out after I have spent 10+ years being a lab monkey. I know a lot of people go this route and like it despite the hard work, but I am not sure if I love doing science enough to put myself through that. My mind wanders a lot. Sometimes I think "wow, this stuff is amazing I want to spend my life studying this no matter what" and then my mind goes to something else for a while and I find myself doubting that I would have the focus to be a good, happy scientist. And if I don't go to graduate school, then what? I would be looking for engineer's jobs but at an extreme disadvantage.

So...I have been scrambling for the past few months to secure a transfer to Electrical Engineering. I have it worked out such that now, all I need to do is press the button, and I will be a 2nd year Electrical Engineering student next Fall. I even chose my research job this summer such that it would have applications to things electrical engineers might work on. I did this because it seems to me that there is a lot more job security for engineers. They graduate knowing that they have a career that pays relatively well, allows them to have a life outside of it, and still allows them to research interesting things.

If the job security question wasn't an issue, I would stay in physics in a heartbeat, but I am afraid that if by the end of this degree I decide I cannot go the graduate school route, that I will have no job prospects. However, engineering would add a year to my degree (which would mean I will have stayed in school for 6 years if I do coop), and the classes wouldn't be as interesting.



Thanks in advance for any input.

EDIT: I should also add that I live in Canada, where there is a big legal difference between someone with a PEng and someone just working as an engineer in industry.

Oh man, I feel EXACTLY the same way about physics and academia and tenure and all that.
bump (I am interested in more answers)

 

[RedX]

Washing dishes, busing tables? I thought the worst you could with a Ph.D. is teach high school. I hear all the time about how science teachers are in demand, and a Ph.D. will make your salary higher (not by much, but a little higher). The pay might not be good but you get summer off. Of course teaching high school students will make your head explode and it'll be harder than getting your Ph.D., but...even an engineering job in the private sector is no picnic they get gray hairs and get stressed out everyday too.

 

[ZapperZ]

In case people somehow are not realizing this, we are in a rather "strange" time. If you are graduating either this year or next year with a degree in physics, you have a better chance of getting either a postdoc, or even a direct employment in the US, than at any other time during the past 8 to 10 years.

The stimulus money is working and while most of it are in the form of direct capital expenditures, the DOE Office of Science and the NSF have both benefited from the bill and have shore up several research programs and initiated others. This resulted in a higher demand for physicists and engineers. Couple that with a very favorable FY09 budget and a very positive proposal for the FY10 budget, many labs and universities are hiring!

Of course, no one can guarantee that this will continue. Still, dismal funding for the physical sciences during the past few years is at least gone for now.

Zz.

 

[Vanadium 50]

In case people somehow are not realizing this, we are in a rather "strange" time. If you are graduating either this year or next year with a degree in physics, you have a better chance of getting either a postdoc, or even a direct employment in the US, than at any other time during the past 8 to 10 years.

While that's true, I think that it's also true that expectations are not in line with reality. Fact of the matter is that even in good times, maybe half of grad students get postdocs, and maybe half (or less) of postdocs get at least quasi-permanent jobs. But students enter into the pipeline thinking that the product of these two numbers isn't 0.2 but more like 0.9.

 

[Andy Resnick]

In case people somehow are not realizing this, we are in a rather "strange" time. If you are graduating either this year or next year with a degree in physics, you have a better chance of getting either a postdoc, or even a direct employment in the US, than at any other time during the past 8 to 10 years.

<snip>

Zz.

I'm not going to claim you are wrong out of hand, but I would like to know what you base this statement on. The ad sections at the back of Physics Today, Science, and Nature are the slimmest I have seen in years and I personally know of several faculty searches canceled due to lack of funding.

To be sure, the students we recently graduated all landed postdocs somewhere, but I'm not seeing any bright propsects for 'direct employment'- even considering that my geographic area is a black hole of dismal economic swampland.

 

[ZapperZ]

My evidence is purely anecdotal based on my conversations with people and observations from 2 different Nat'l Labs and 2 different universities.

I'm not saying the situation is GOOD. There is still a lot of physics graduates when compared to available permanent positions in the traditional areas. But I am starting to see it being better than it was, especially even just a year ago when we simply did not get the money that we were told we were going to get. Our students are getting not only interviews for postdocs, but also interviews for staff positions, which used to occur only very rarely.

I think in the next 6 months, the full effect of the stimulus bill will be even more pronounced once the allocated funds really kick in. I think that in engineering hiring, this may already be apparent. Still, the major drawback on this is that there's only so much the govt. and academic sector can do without the rest of the economy recovering as well. And as I've said earlier, for there to be any meaningful increase in physics employment, this can't be a one-shot or even a short-term increase in physical science funding.

Zz.

 

[josh_einsle]

One is that there is a perception that someone with a BS in physics should be able to get a job as an engineer. I don't know how this got started, but my advice is that if you want a job as an engineer, get a degree in engineering.

I will say case and point that I am an example of a person with a BA in Physics doing an engineering job. For me, physics thought me how to learn, gave me the basic math skills needed in all engineering jobs and a basic understanding of the physical processes involved in most semi-conductor processes.

I will not say i do the job of an EE or ME or CE, but in most semi-conductor/ data storage / mems related companies, there is very little engineering that is not process based. This means these companies expect you to be able to learn how control a process, learn how your tool set works and then move on to other tool sets in a few years. Yes EE, ME and material scientists and or physicists might have bigger roles in device design, but the basic roles of process control engineering will be great entry level jobs for most people with a bachelors in physics.

Additionally, I actually work for a capital equipment manufacturer and again there is a large cross-section of 'physicists' (people who studied physics at all levels from Bachlors to Phd) in the company doing various roles in sales, marketing, product development, systems engineering, demonstrators and research.

Overall the ones that have been successful are the ones who learned to learn while being educated. Most engineering principles can be thought to a physicist as long as they are receptive to learn.

 

[ronridings]

just thought that you would like to know i was looking at jobs posted on the department of energy website a few months ago, just out of curiosity, i saw many available positions for engineers and also for physicist. i am assuming that they were looking for people with a phd though. the starting pay was 125k. not sure though. check it out.

 

[merry]

Good point.

I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics (from a very well known US university) and a postdoc but am unemployed now. I will soon be looking for a job delivering pizzas or washing dishes in a restaurant. But I have no regrets, I prefer to have challenged my mind and learned a lot than having made lots of money to buy a house, a fancy car and other stuff.

Aww man that's put a heavy load on my heart! I want to go for particle physics as well, but then everything in the universe seems to point towards engineering right now... Its so hard to choose between what you love and what will help you survive in the future. T.T

 

[MaxwellsDemon]

Good point.

I have a PhD in theoretical particle physics (from a very well known US university) and a postdoc but am unemployed now. I will soon be looking for a job delivering pizzas or washing dishes in a restaurant. But I have no regrets, I prefer to have challenged my mind and learned a lot than having made lots of money to buy a house, a fancy car and other stuff.

I have a masters in physics and I've already done both of those jobs! I'm currently working in a restaurant as a cook/dishwasher. I decided to go into a high school teacher certification program at a local university. When I'm done I'll have a second masters in education. I may not get to go into any depth in the subject matter when teaching to kids, but it'll give me free time to work on my ideas and hopefully some of my passion for physics will rub of on some impressionable young minds. There is an enormous need for quality high school science teachers these days...you may want to consider it as a career path. It beats spending every day elbow deep in dishwater. You won't get rich as a teacher, but you'll be making a difference.