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Shroud of Turin

What is the Shroud Of Turin?

Poll closed Aug 13, 2003.
  1. The Shroud Of Turin is an actual imprint of Jesus' body

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. The Shroud Of Turin is a photograph of a dead body and a mask, by Leonardo Da Vinci

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  3. The Shroud of Turin is a fake that was painted onto middle eastern fabric

    8 vote(s)
    72.7%
  4. The Shroud of Turin was imprinted with a picture of God by god

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Jul 14, 2003 #1
    The Shroud of Turin has been in the small town of Turin, Italy, since around the 1400s. There has always been a debate as to whether it was a true representation of Jesus or a scam.

    I'm not going to provide a link or a source for you to study this phenomenon (you can do that independently) but will ask you to decide on a vote concerning its origin, if you like. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2003
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 14, 2003 #2
    well i do believe it's a very clever fake, however shouldn't there be a "maybe" option? i think that's the option i would choose.
     
  4. Jul 14, 2003 #3
    I when I had first heard about this twenty or so years ago, I was amazed, and thought how could somebody possibly fake that? That is until recently, on some science documentary (possible Nova), that they we were able to reproduce similar results. So at this point I'm inclined to believe it was a forgery.
     
  5. Jul 16, 2003 #4
    Not to mention the C14 dating that tags it to be from the middle ages.

    To me, before the dating, the most compelling evidence against was that if an image was imprinted, it wouldn't look like it does. What you see is a two dimensional projection, similar to a photo. The shroud would have wrapped around getting more than a simple two dimensional projection, being the sides of the face would also be part of the image, giving a very distorted looking (pie shaped) face. A simple experiment can be run to show the type of image that should have been produced. Mix a thin mixture of facial mud, smear it on your face, then lightly apply a light colored towel to your face, just as a shroud would, letting it contact the front and sides of your face. The image you get doesn't have the same type shape as the Turin shroud.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2003
  6. Jul 16, 2003 #5
    the shroud, although not that much around the face, actually does give a 3-d image. well i shouldn't nessecarily say that since many debate it, but i know some labs have come up with a 3-d image of the person depicted in the shroud. anyways if you put paint on your face and losely place a sheet over it you get a pretty nice picture. however this just demonstrates the amount of time the artist put into this painting, i would think it was his greatest work.

    i've always wondered how an artist could make an image like that though, what kind of paint would you use? i know they've found the blood to be a type of paint, but what about the paint (or whatever) used to make the person on the shroud?
     
  7. Jul 16, 2003 #6
    Many studies have been done on the shroud and how an image like the one on the shroud could have been produced.

    At some point I will go and dig up some of the books I have in my library that explain the process, plus the names of the individuals who did the experiments that show the shroud to be a photograph of a dead body wearing a mask that resembles either an old jesus or an old Leonardo DaVinci.

    Leonardo invented the Camera Obscura... an invention that uses a small slit in a box which projects a bright image from outside the box onto a wall inside the box. The image is projected upside-down.

    It is not much of a further stretch to imagine DaVinci discovering that he could retain the image if it was projected onto a silver and tempura mix... which is a precursor to photographic film chemicals. DaVinci regularly used a silver point to draw with and used egg tempura as a medium with which to add pigment for painting.

    DaVinci was in Turin during the middle ages (from which the shroud has been carbon dated as HazZy has noted.) He was there to do a portrait of the daughter of a rich merchant.

    The Daughter of the rich merchant's name was.... Mona Lisa.

    This puts DaVinci in the town of Turin around the same time as when the shroud miraculously appeared... again.

    I say "again" because there had been rumours of a shroud with the image of Jesus floating around for a long time... ever since jesus was supposedly exicuted.

    The shroud was rumoured to be owned by the ruler of Constantenoples and it was rumoured to have been gifted to a Crusader who was rumoured to have brought it to the west.

    This was a rumour that became a myth that became a mainstay of the elite religious leaders during the dark ages and so on.

    DaVinci did not like the church. I can imagine him pulling a scam with his "magic" camera, just so it could be proven a fake, some 400 years later... when the camera would be re-invented and the process used to make the shroud "exposed", thus exposing the shroud as a fake.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2003
  8. Jul 17, 2003 #7
    You only get that image if you allow the shroud/cloth to only contact the front surface of the face. If it is allowed to encompass the face, as it would if wrapped around a person, then the image would be very round. You can determine a 3D image from a 2D projection, what I'm saying is that the 2D image on the shroud would not be 'picture-like' as a 2D projection would.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2003
  9. Jul 22, 2003 #8
    Yep, it is a fake...glad to see other people know it!
     
  10. Aug 6, 2003 #9
    Turin, Davinci, Carbon Dating

    Those poll choices leave a lot to be desired.

    I think carbon dating is flawed.

    I think the blast at Hiroshima caused imprints of the people on the wall.

    I saw pictures of a South American bed where the occupant was gone in a flash (alleged Alien activity) and the flash left imprints on the sheet but I cannot vouch for the validity of the source or the pictures.

    I do think Davinci knew things and was probably pro-Jesus or at least sort of pro-Templar or something and anti-church-politics-money.

    I saw a study I tend to believe. A female researcher did examinations of Mona and determined it was Leonardo turning himself into a woman and grinning about it.

    Also fascinating stuff on his use of depth through color to make the viewer see things they would not otherwise see at varying angles ... like the smile.

    All-in-all, I think the shroud is not a hoax to thumb Leo's nose at the establishment but would be more valuable examined without expectation flawing the results.
     
  11. Aug 6, 2003 #10

    megashawn

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    How do you suggest it be examined? Perhaps using a cross made of gold, on a chain held over the shroud. If it rotates clockwise, its real, if it rotates counterclockwise, its not?

    I mean, every means of testing that is considered reliable is not good enough for you?

    What problems do you have with carbon dating? The flood idea, that makes things look older? Well, there isn't any evidence supporting a global flood, either.

    And this has what to do with what?

    As I understood it, basically any shadow that was cast left an imprint on the ground, walls, etc within the blast zone.

    To the alien case, hmm.
     
  12. Aug 7, 2003 #11
    Re: Turin, Davinci, Carbon Dating

    Well, do the best you can with it, ok?

    The good thing about science is, it works even when you don't believe it!

    So Jesus's corpse went forward in time, got blasted by an H-bomb, and traveled back in time, with the sheet intact...

    ...or Jesus was adopted by aliens? Which one is it?

    And this is relevant how?

    Hmmm...what expectations do you think 'flaw' the results? And how could expectations affect carbon dating, or the myriad other tests that have shown time and again that the shroud is a hoax?
     
  13. Aug 7, 2003 #12
    Re: Turin, Davinci, Carbon Dating

    Based on what?


    Most shadows do, but we aren't talking two dimensional shadows. We are talking a sheet, wrapped around a body and face. Take a peice of string and measure the distance between your ears (across your front of your face). This is how far apart the ears shown in the shround would appear. Take your time and think it through. This isn't a 2 dimensional projection like a mirror, picture, or shadow, but the direct image of the surface onto a shround wrapped around a body. The image will not look like a picture. If it does then the image wasn't formed on a wrapping.


    Oh well if you're going to give us alien abduction evidence to support the shroud of turin, why didn't you say so. Then of course you're right.

    Humor aside, you're still talking two dimensional projections, like shadows.

    Did you remember to take your meds today?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2003
  14. Aug 7, 2003 #13
    quantumfish

    hello, just dipping in between bouts of fishing the vicious fish of Alberta! A fitting interlude when you consider the symbol that's been attached to the main figure of the Shroud of Turin (fish).

    As promised.

    I found the author's names of the very good (highly physical!) explaination concerning the Shroud of Turin.

    The authors are Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince. They wrote "Turin Shroud..."

    here is a website with the whole gambit of books written on the subject....explainations that extend from angelic interludes (requiring qualudes:) to the records of the carbon14 dating that was done back in whenever it was done. Everything to do with the subject.

    http://www.ntskeptics.org/books/shroud.htm

    Happy chemtrails!

    PS. To do with this Thread and Topic on PF... Clive and Lynn have written a wonderful book about Mary Magdelene as well. Cheers.
     
  15. Aug 7, 2003 #14
    pictures and unusual energy

    The walls were not wrapped around the people at Hiroshima. Perhaps if they were, you would have had 3-d images.

    Atomic energy changes the results of carbon dating and they do their best to incorporate that into results they get, as I understand it. Part of that is done by studying the varying rings in trees. The rings vary and they had to figure out why.

    That alone (energy blasts) will lead to major problems with carbon dating where the people of expectation set out to prove a thing, not realizing that atomic blasts did not just begin with WWII. There are now accounts of ancient literature and art that tell stories of what seems to be atomic blasts and the remains are indicative of such occurrences.

    I am associating it with the Turin shroud simply to say, well, what if there are phenomenon of heat and light that we do not understand with our basic belief systems? The Jesus character was not ordinary.

    I'm not alone in realizing that carbon dating tends to get the results someone wants to prove.

    Science does not necessarily work "whether I believe it or not". Scientists are a very organized group who agree to agree for 20 years or so. Then theories get overturned. Example? Check on Freud's theories of women's orgasms versus the work done by Masters and Johnson. Freud was wrong.
     
  16. Aug 7, 2003 #15
    Re: pictures and unusual energy

    If you've got even the slightest bit of evidence that fission bombs went off before Alamagordo, I'd certainly like to hear about it. I'd also like you to elaborate on just how atomic blasts alter carbon dating. Are you saying that they release carbon-14?

    And please elaborate on the tree rings. Because tree rings have been used to collaborate, cross reference, and confirm the accuracy of carbon dating.

    Sure, you're not the only one who thinks carbon dating is biased. Creationists and other nutty pseudoscientists do it all the time.

    And the bull****ometer goes to red when you say things like "Scientists are a very organized group who agree to agree". You, sir, apparently have had no involvement whatsoever with the scientific community.

    And Freud was a 19th century social scientist. Little more than a philosopher. I wouldn't regard him as a real scientist at all.
     
  17. Aug 7, 2003 #16
    Re: pictures and unusual energy

    One phenomenon you have touched on is the discrepency found when correlating tree-ring dates and radiocarbon14 dating.

    Traditionally, the results of radiocarbon14 dating are estimated approximately 50 years either side of the date attained. Tree rings can also be suspect when you take into account the fact that there is NO growth during extreme weather conditions.

    Velikovski (close consultant to Einstein) goes into great detail concerning radiocarbon14 dating and the use of other methods suchas counting the tree-rings on wooden structures, tools and in petrified wood.

    Velikovski's main concern was that disturbances of a cosmic nature might disrupt the carbon14 in objects and throw dating off by 300 to 500 years. The properties would be changed by the presence of a celestial body and its naturally radiant, EM fields and gravitational qualities. Certain proton alignments would also be temporarily changed. He believed Venus passed relatively closely to earth and had this effect on many elements including the RAdioCarbon14 found in organic matter.

    Velikovski claims Venus was extracted or expulsed from Jupiter around 3600 years ago and messed with the EMFs, radiation and general surface readings of this planet on its way into orbit, where it can be found today. His claims have more to do with the Egyptian dates around 1500 BC (Mose's time) than they have to do with the sequences during the later period of 1400 AD when the Shroud was created by Da Vinci.

    Considering the above case, I'd say your concerns concerning the validity of the carbon14 dating done on the Shroud of Turin are unwarranted.

    Concerning the image: try wrapping tin foil around your face then gently flatening the tinfoil out. You will notice a severe distortion to the original features of your face will occur. The image of the man on the shroud, however, is a perfect reproduction of how we'd see his likeness in a photograph... albeit in a negative format.

    The only way the Shroud could have an imprint like the one it does is through the use of photography. There are no pigments found on the image of the dead man. The only paint pigments found on the cloth are found in the fake blood rivulets that seemingly run down the arms of the deceased. This was truely a work of art, well, a multi-media extravaganza actually!

    Oops, my beer is getting cold... er... hot... er... bye.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2003
  18. Aug 8, 2003 #17
    Re: pictures and unusual energy

    Dude, you really shouldn't try to back up a myth with pseudoscience...*grins*
     
  19. Aug 8, 2003 #18
    Re: pictures and unusual energy

    Quite true, but we aren't discussing images on walls, but on a shroud. One that was wrapped around a person. Hence the problem. There should be a distorted image, not like a picture - as in the shroud. If you really cannot get what's being said, then powder your face with some flour, then wrap a bath towel over your face and around your head. Then image formed by the flour will not be picture-like, but much, much wider. Something NOT seen in the shroud.


    You must have your head up your nether regions if you think Nuclear blasts had any effect on the carbon dating of the shroud, or of anything else. It is my understanding carbon 14 is produced in a reaction between nitrogen in the atmosphere and high energy neutrons (at much higher energy than produced in a nuclear blast) in the form of cosmic rays.

    Disregarding the fact that nuclear detonations don't effect C14 dating, the fact the shroud's cotten/linen material was growing before nuclear bombs were invented, and has been shielded from the radiation of such explosions by the distance of at least several hundred to a thousands of miles, blows a hole in you atomic bomb theory.



    Maybe if you had taken science past high school you would have a greater understanding of heat and light. Heat and light don't have an effect on C14, in any way you are suggesting.

    I think you're much more alone than you think. You seem to be the type that treats scientific results as simple opinion - where opposing opinions are simply dismissed as biased.

    Psychology is an infant science - hardly along the scale of the hard sciences.

    The idea that things can be wrong - as discovered by science is quite true. The aspect you seem to ignore is that scientist do not agree or want to. A scientist can make himself extremely famous by disproving a generally accepted scientific principle. If I were a physicist, and could prove that C14 dating was highly flawed (as you suggest), it would make my career - I could become a researcher at a prestigious institution and never have to do anything again. The greatests scientists in the world have all been those that overturned a generally accepted view of how things were.
     
  20. Aug 8, 2003 #19

    megashawn

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    Just out of curiousity, where did you get the idea that there were atomic bombs before ww2?

    Do you have any proof? References? I'd and others I'm sure would love to see that.

    hahaha

    sorry

    can't help but laugh.
     
  21. Aug 9, 2003 #20

    Ivan Seeking

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    Gold Member

    My oh my

    First, the carbon dating is flawed. This is caused by an enzyme present on the fibers of the cloth. The cloth is to be cleaned and then retested. We do not currently know the age of the shroud. I have seen this confirmed in an interview with the scientist who invented carbon dating.

    Also, the shroud was in two fires I think. Carbon from these fires, one of which was in the 14th or 15th century may have also skewed the results.

    I can't vote until these carbon dating tests are repeated with uncontaminated material.
     
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