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Simple thought experiment

  1. Jun 1, 2004 #1
    This is a thought experiment that I've done many times over the years.
    I like to create a nice and simple cosmos that allows me to select the variables I choose to particapate in my experiment. I always start out with a solar mass of some size. The first time I did this experiment, I just imagined a system of about 10 solar masses. I didn't include anything else at the start.

    step 1 - Turn on the light?

    At first I wasn't sure if I wanted a star or just a ball of hydrogen gas. I decided a ball of hydrogen gas would force me to address the issue of starting a fire, keeping in mine that at least in my model, the cosmos and the universe are one and the same before I light the fire.

    step 2 - Energy Propagation - push or pull?

    I decided my cosmos would not be a perpetual motion machine. So I choose to "pull" on the system to start the process of producing the radiating energy. The external pull would separate the force from the system. Due to the fundamental forces in nature, this external force would not be able to pull the system apart, but extract some of the energy contained in the hydrogen gas and convert it to a radiating light. The radiation increased the volume of the cosmos, at least in my system. If we relate this thought experiment to our own solar system and our solar system is five(5) billion years old, then this cosmos would have a diameter of about 10 billion light years.

    I would like to know if any of you like doing thought experiments of this type? I think as long as these types of experiments are done using sound physics guidelines and paramenters, much insight can be gained in relating to many complex configurations. I realize this example is an over simplication, but you gotta start somewhere.
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 2, 2004 #2

    Before responding to your thought experiment, allow me to ask you a question. Are you a forerunner of the existence of a fifth force?

    I know there are four fundamental forces in nature. These are the gravity force, the electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force and the strong nulcear force. The effective range of the 1st two forces are infinite while the effective range of the last two forces are only within the the nuclear domain.

    I am doing research in looking for a fifth force which, ironically, I dubbed as the force of antigravity. In inflationary cosmology, this force is akin to the existence of negative pressure in the inflaton field.

    Now, back to your thought experiment, I do have the following comments. There are many unknowns (missing parameters) in this experiment. There is no mention of temperature, density, pressure, or the dynamics responsible for energy production.

    The only givens are the 10 solar masses and the hydrogen gas. But still the mechanism of starting the fire must be mentioned otherwise you can always say that it is started by magic.

    The information for the formation and birth of a star can be found in the book by Sir Arthur S. Eddington entitled: The Internal Constitution of the Stars, 1926, Cambridge Science Classics.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2004
  4. Jun 2, 2004 #3
    Just food for thought


    in answer to your first question, yes, I have determined there is a fifth force and this force is responsible for "cosmos" expansion. I concluded that the dark energy plays a major roll in this process.

    Now, the simple thought experiment was not intended to be a complete description of the total process since the variables could be almost endless. By me stating that "my" cosmos with one star of about 10 solar masses, is "not" a perpetual motion machine, implies that it is a closed system and the fundamental force(s) are external to the processes occuring within the system. This is the necessary cause and effect responsible for the "pull" force producing propagation.

    Thanks for your comments.
  5. Jun 2, 2004 #4
    Thanks for the quick response. But I still not very clear how the 5th force was incorporated into your thought experiment. Or are you going to show us how maybe later?
  6. Jun 2, 2004 #5
    Energy extraction via fifth force


    I've been developing my theories for over twenty years and can't go into alot of detail here and now. But I will say that when I refer to the "pull" force against the system, i'm impling that the fifth force is responsible for extracting energy from the system. This extraction is what we experience as all forms of radiation.
  7. Jun 2, 2004 #6
    force, is this an attempt for a certain kind of astral projection? if it is, it is well done by what i can see, but i have never astral projected, come very very close though, but never actually succeeded. keep up the great work my friend.
  8. Jun 2, 2004 #7

    The 5th force I'm working on can be given by its proportionality to the difference between the electric force and magnetic force.

    [tex] F_5 = k_5 (F_E - F_B) [/tex]

    where [itex]k_5[/itex] is the constant of proportionality. [itex] F_E = qE [/itex] is the electric force, [itex] F_B = qv \times B [/itex] is the magnetic force. q is the electric charge, E is the electric field, B is the magnetic field.
  9. Jun 2, 2004 #8
    right on track


    When I started this thread I really didn't intend to discuss my theories. But, only get some idea about how interested other people are in doing thought experiments.

    But I will say, according to my work, you are right on track. When I first thought about a fifth force, it was only because of the neccessity to satisfy my theoritical model. Of course I was very happy when I learned about dark energy and dark matter. These findings were what I needed to get some assurance that my work could have an impact on future events.
  10. Jun 3, 2004 #9

    Don't you feel the urge to publish your ideas of the 5th force? If your theory has bearing within physics, you might just win the Nobel Prize for giving a successful suggested experimental verification.

    Looking far ahead into the future, your 5th force might be just the mean for interplanetary travel or interstellar travel or intergalactic travel?
  11. Jun 3, 2004 #10
    maybe some day


    When I set out on this course many years ago, the last thing on my mind was achiving the level of comprehension that I have so far. Seeking fame or fortune has never been my objective. Knowing the truth is the greastest reward I could possibly have. naturally, one would wish to share any information that could add to our overall understanding of things.

    I've spent the last four or five years visiting hundreds of web sites in hopes of finding someone that has developed simular concepts and theories so that I could possibly contribute to their efforts. Although I have this passion for seeking the truth, I have absolutly no desire to spend what time I have left trying to convince anyone of anything.

    I think you would agree that most professionals in the field of science
    seek the truth just as we do, but, if the truth led to major changes in research funding, the establishment would not except new ideas with open arms.

    Although I have become my own worst critic, I have not yet ruled out the possibility that I could be a first class crackpot.

    Thanks for your comments.
  12. Jun 3, 2004 #11
    It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one seeking the reality of the fifth essence. Thanks for giving me this awareness.
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