So much for freedom of religion

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  • #1
Pengwuino
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http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=118350 [Broken]

I guess the plan to convert all the heathens with displays of a christmas tree and red hats has been found out. :confused: :confused:
 
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  • #2
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ya seriously.

I guess when you are going to celebrate a holiday, you shouldn't be able to actually...celebrate...the...holiday... This makes sense...


Its a Christmas tree, not a magic tree, not a holiday tree.
 
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  • #3
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Christmas, and Christianity in general, has with it a culture as well as a belief system. That's the root of the problem, in my opinion. You'll never take Jesus out of Christmas because he'll always be celebrated at Church masses. However, the culture that surrounds it - Christmas trees, carols, etc, are less directly associated with the belief system and more tied in with the traditions of the people who celebrate Christmas, which happens to be the majority of US citizens. Therefore, it isn't an attack on Christianity or a "war on Christmas", it's the conscious recognition that these traditions, no matter how little they invoke Jesus in people's minds, are rooted in a religion, and the first amendment states that Congress will not endorse any religious establishment.

Although I think with issues like this, the majority will probably win. Really, it's probably less destructive to allow little loop holes like Christmas in public schools than have huge polarizing debates that end up with pundits questioning the religious views of founding fathers. One can only hope that the cultural side of Christmas is all that rears its head in schools lest it bear precedence for prayer before PTA meetings.
 
  • #4
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the problem is no one is endorsing any religion here... but good try.
 
  • #5
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I don't have too much of a problem with Christmas. I personally don't even think of it as a Christian holiday: I think of it as more of a social/cultural holiday. I agree to a point that these people are going a bit overboard with no red/green, and no "christmas," but it does not bother me that much.

Would everyone be ok if we had a Hanukkah-based public-school play?
 
  • #6
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Wishbone said:
the problem is no one is endorsing any religion here... but good try.
In elementary school, our music teacher made us sing Christmas carols for a school concert. I'm not Christian. Why should I have been forced to sing the praises of Jesus? I didn't complain because I didn't know anything about Christianity, and that's why it didn't bother me. I know my parents were a bit disgruntled to know that I didn't learn anything new in school that day because the school decided to take the day to celebrate Christmas.

Now, I used the word "endorse," which is a relatively weak word. Considering one of the definitions of "endorse" is "To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement" (dictionary.com), I think that qualifies.

And thank you for the kind riposte.
 
  • #7
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Pengwuino said:
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=118350 [Broken]
I guess the plan to convert all the heathens with displays of a christmas tree and red hats has been found out. :confused: :confused:
Must have worked, look where they all are now.
 
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  • #8
Evo
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I don't approve of organized religion for a number of reasons (not the same as a person holding personal religious beliefs), but this is ridiculous. Christmas has become more of a social holiday than a religious one and it's something a lot of little kids (and big ones) look forward to and enjoy. As long as they weren't making anyone worship/pray I don't see the harm.

“The solution isn’t to take Christmas out of the (school events). The solution is telling people to lighten up,” she said.
No kidding!

Too many crazy people on both sides of the issue are ruining things for everyone. :grumpy:
 
  • #9
Pengwuino
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Wait wait... how is Christmas not a religious occasion?

And i do indeed wish there was a larger Jewish population and one that was more public about their religion, I would surely enjoy seeing their celebratory affairs and learning more about their tradiations.

And isn't magic.... technically maybe a religion too! Sue them!
 
  • #10
Evo
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Pengwuino said:
Wait wait... how is Christmas not a religious occasion?
Because the holiday aspect has overtaken the religious aspect. It has lost all, if not most, of it's religious meaning for a large number of people. That's what happens. You do know that most Christian holidays, such as Christmas and Easter were created to replace pagan holidays?
 
  • #11
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Evo said:
Because the holiday aspect has overtaken the religious aspect. It has lost all, if not most, of it's religious meaning for a large number of people. That's what happens. You do know that most Christian holidays, such as Christmas and Easter were created to replace pagan holidays?
So since no one really cares or knows who cesar chavez was, why have a holiday for him? Since thanksgiving is all about eating, why not toss that out too? Thankfully, people still konw who the hell MLK jr was so i guess hes safe for now... And maybe its just because its where I live, but the hell if I can find a church that isnt packed to the brim on christmas morning and christmas day....
 
  • #12
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Pengwuino said:
Wait wait... how is Christmas not a religious occasion?

And i do indeed wish there was a larger Jewish population and one that was more public about their religion, I would surely enjoy seeing their celebratory affairs and learning more about their tradiations.

And isn't magic.... technically maybe a religion too! Sue them!
There's the old Yule Tide spirit!
 
  • #13
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Dmstifik8ion said:
There's the old Yule Tide spirit!
Yah!!!

SUE SUE SUE!!!

Wait thats the american public spirit.... oops....
 
  • #14
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Evo said:
Because the holiday aspect has overtaken the religious aspect. It has lost all, if not most, of it's religious meaning for a large number of people. That's what happens. You do know that most Christian holidays, such as Christmas and Easter were created to replace pagan holidays?
Exactly. The only reason why there is a surge in this "get Christmas out of our government" movement is that it's in response to Christians realizing that Christmas has lost touch with their religion and trying to convert it back from a secularized celebration (which, in my opinion, is a noble task). But then you can't have it both ways. Either Christmas is fully a religious holiday or you have the secular and religious dichotomy.
 
  • #15
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Pengwuino said:
So since no one really cares or knows who cesar chavez was, why have a holiday for him? Since thanksgiving is all about eating, why not toss that out too? Thankfully, people still konw who the hell MLK jr was so i guess hes safe for now... And maybe its just because its where I live, but the hell if I can find a church that isnt packed to the brim on christmas morning and christmas day....
Of course their are people that celebrate Christmas as part of their religion. There are also a lot of people that celebrate a non-religious Christmas.

This time of year has been popular for celebrating long before Christians came along. The pagans started it, the Christians put their slant on it, but that doesn't give them exclusive rights to it. The jolly Santa, flying reindeer, elves, north pole, those are NOT Christian symbols.
 
  • #16
Pengwuino
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Evo said:
Of course their are people that celebrate Christmas as part of their religion. There are also a lot of people that celebrate a non-religious Christmas.

This time of year has been popular for celebrating long before Christians came along. The pagans started it, the Christians put their slant on it, but that doesn't give them exclusive rights to it. The jolly Santa, flying reindeer, elves, north pole, those are NOT Christian symbols.
Well how can Christmas and its associated symbols be used as supposed endorsements of religion yet at the same time, not be a religious holiday?
 
  • #17
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Jelfish said:
Exactly. The only reason why there is a surge in this "get Christmas out of our government" movement is that it's in response to Christians realizing that Christmas has lost touch with their religion and trying to convert it back from a secularized celebration (which, in my opinion, is a noble task). But then you can't have it both ways. Either Christmas is fully a religious holiday or you have the secular and religious dichotomy.
That's precisely what is happening.

The fun part of Christmas that I celebrate is not Christian. Show me where flying reindeer are mentioned in the Bible. :wink:
 
  • #18
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In fact, I would go as far as saying that people who believe that Christmas should be taken out of schools are more respectful of Christmas than the people who wonder why there is such a fuss over carols and trees. They take Christianity as a serious religion. They recognize the implication of Jesus's birth and therefore realize that idealy, the celebration of Christmas would entail an appreciation of Jesus and the start of his epic life. Isn't it really a disservice to children (especially Christian children) to have their school celebrate this holiday as though it were simply a time of gift giving and general merriment? Unless of course, Christmas isn't really a religious holiday..
 
  • #19
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Pengwuino said:
Well how can Christmas and its associated symbols be used as supposed endorsements of religion yet at the same time, not be a religious holiday?
What most people associate with Christmas contains no religious symbols. I can see not having a nativity scene, that would be religious. I can't think of anything else that is truly tied to the Christian bible, can you?
 
  • #20
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Evo said:
That's precisely what is happening.
The fun part of Christmas that I celebrate is not Christian. Show me where flying reindeer are mentioned in the Bible. :wink:
Are bunnies mentioned in the Bible? :confused:
 
  • #21
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Perhaps if they put :devil: on top of the tree instead of o:) all would be forgiven.
 
  • #22
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Evo said:
What most people associate with Christmas contains no religious symbols. I can see not having a nativity scene, that would be religious. I can't think of anything else that is truly tied to the Christian bible, can you?
So what is the problem with a christmas tree or christmas carols and all this crap. Maybe 1/4 of the things ever brought up in news articles like these are those very narrow things like nativity scenes or crosses... so im assuming you would agree the other 3/4 are baseless?
 
  • #23
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Jelfish said:
Unless of course, Christmas isn't really a religious holiday..
I think Christmas has become a non-christian holiday to many. That certainly doesn't mean that christians that wish to can't continue to celebrate it in their way. They do need to accept that the celebratory aspect is no longer confined to religion. They stole the holiday to begin with. It's pretty commonly accepted that Jesus was not born in December, but the early priests needed something to compete with the popular pagan holiday this time of year.

Let's compromise. Non christians will celebrate December 25th as Santa day and christians can move the birth of Jesus to when it was more likely he was really born.

Serioulsy, why can't it be both?
 
  • #24
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Pengwuino said:
So what is the problem with a christmas tree or christmas carols and all this crap. Maybe 1/4 of the things ever brought up in news articles like these are those very narrow things like nativity scenes or crosses... so im assuming you would agree the other 3/4 are baseless?
That's what I'm saying, this fear of trees and elves and reindeer is ridiculous.

I personally do not feel threatened by a nativity scene, unless someone requires I worship it. That's not happening.
 
  • #25
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Evo said:
Let's compromise. Non christians will celebrate December 25th as Santa day and christians can move the birth of Jesus to when it was more likely he was really born.
Serioulsy, why can't it be both?
I don't have a problem with it. I think Christians might have a problem with it.
 
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