So much for freedom of religion

[Pengwuino]

Duct tape? What am I, an infidel?

no no, your a heathen, I am not muslim. Now convert!

 

[Curious3141]

ya seriously.

I guess when you are going to celebrate a holiday, you shouldn't be able to actually...celebrate...the...holiday... This makes sense...


Its a Christmas tree, not a magic tree, not a holiday tree.

Say the handful of Muslim students wanted to do something schoolwide to celebrate their religious days. Would you be 100 % OK with that ?

 

[Jelfish]

no no, your a heathen, I am not muslim. Now convert!

Hmm does your religion celebrate hedonism and gluttony? I've been needing a good excuse lately.

Also, infidel generally means non-believer (think infidelity)

 

[Pengwuino]

Say the handful of Muslim students wanted to do something schoolwide to celebrate their religious days. Would you be 100 % OK with that ?

Why wouldn't someone be ok with that?

Speaking of muslims, this one muslim girl i knew in high school said she had to pray 6 times a day. Now the thing I wonder about is what happens during school hours? I never noticed any muslim children ever pray... and I'm sure the school wouldn't be able to forbid them from doing that or else that's outright religious persecution right there (but then again schools are forbidding voluntary/personal praying already).

 

[Pengwuino]

Hmm does your religion celebrate hedonism and gluttony? I've been needing a good excuse lately.
Also, infidel generally means non-believer (think infidelity)

No... but you only have to go to church once a week! And they do a lot of good music!

Oh and a lot of catholic churches have a lot of pancake breakfasts.

Thats all the peopel seem to do at my mother's lutheran church, eat eat ea te atejkfla;sdf eat eat ea t eat eat eat eat pray eat eat eat eat eat.

 

[Jelfish]

This discussion reminds me of my trip to China which actually started Christmas day of last year. In Beijing there were Christmas decorations EVERYWHERE in the commercial district (especially Santas). I think it would be humorous to find out the percentage of decorators that are Christian or even know that the holiday has to do with a religion. And yet, even without Christianity around, there's still that Christmasy kind of feeling everywhere. Maybe that's how Christmas, err.. Santa Day, should be.

 

[Pengwuino]

May i suggest a book:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446696749/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[Jelfish]

Why wouldn't someone be ok with that?

When you're 10 years old, you don't always look at things from a learning perspective. In fact, when I was very young, I almost became a Christian because I thought it was a cool club where you have these holidays where everyone gives presents and put up pretty decorations and every one is so happy and love love love. If an Islamic preacher went to a public school during a Muslim holiday and preached about its meaning to young children, I'd be willing to bet that people would get upset.

 

[Pengwuino]

When you're 10 years old, you don't always look at things from a learning perspective. In fact, I almost became a Christian because I thought it was a cool club where you have these holidays where everyone gives presents and put up pretty decorations and every one is so happy and love love love. If an Islamic preacher went to a public school during a Muslim holiday and preached about its meaning to young children, I'd be willing to bet that people would get upset.

And your parents had what to say about this? Do parents just release children into daycares and schools and think their responsibility is over until the weekends?

And expand the concept out to everything else. Why aren't teachers fired when they pretty much indoctrinate children into being democrats? What about when politicians come to schools to campaign/complain (is there a difference haha)? Parents need to deal with their kids, they did the dirty deed, they got pregnant, and baring an abortion, the hell if they shouldn't feel responsible to raise that kid for the next 18 years.

 

[Jelfish]

No... but you only have to go to church once a week! And they do a lot of good music!

Oh and a lot of catholic churches have a lot of pancake breakfasts.

Thats all the peopel seem to do at my mother's lutheran church, eat eat ea te atejkfla;sdf eat eat ea t eat eat eat eat pray eat eat eat eat eat.

Hmm good music. Pancakes. And all I have to do is unquestionably pledge my allegiance and faith to the Penguin Tower? I suppose most people choose a religion for its fringe benefits anyway. I'm in!

 

[Pengwuino]

Hmm good music. Pancakes. And all I have to do is unquestionably pledge my allegiance and faith to the Penguin Tower? I suppose most people choose a religion for its fringe benefits anyway. I'm in!

no no, that's for christianity.

Pengwuinoism requires you worship the Penguin, pray to the penguin 10 times a day, and give your life to the Cause. This religion, however, kicks ass. We're not all lovey-dovey and love thy neighbor. In 2020, we plan on forceably take over the world using a secret army being trained and armed down in the north pole.

 

[Jelfish]

And your parents had what to say about this? Do parents just release children into daycares and schools and think their responsibility is over until the weekends?

My parents didn't really care because neither of them are religious. In fact, I went to Catholic high school (for the education). But let's not move this to a 'parent/teacher responsibility' debate. Regardless of whether the parent speaks out, the school has a responsibility to keep it self in line on these kinds of issues.

 

[Evo]

Or of course we could do the only RATIONAL thing and worship the Penguin Tower all of December.

I'm for that!

 

[Jelfish]

no no, that's for christianity.
Pengwuinoism requires you worship the Penguin, pray to the penguin 10 times a day, and give your life to the Cause. This religion, however, kicks ass. We're not all lovey-dovey and love thy neighbor. In 2020, we plan on forceably take over the world using a secret army being trained and armed down in the north pole.

I thought most penguins lived near the South pole. Or did I just give away the surprise tactic..

 

[Pengwuino]

I thought most penguins lived near the South pole. Or did I just give away the surprise tactic..

:grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy:

This is just like when the LA Times leaked to the public the plans for our ice submarine!

 

[Pengwuino]

My parents didn't really care because neither of them are religious. In fact, I went to Catholic high school (for the education). But let's not move this to a 'parent/teacher responsibility' debate. Regardless of whether the parent speaks out, the school has a responsibility to keep it self in line on these kinds of issues.

Schools should keep itself in line by letting people do what they want and giving them a choice, not forcing peoples personal beliefs out of their life.

 

[Jelfish]

:grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy: :grumpy:

This is just like when the LA Times leaked to the public the plans for our ice submarine!

Maybe I'm not fit for your religion afterall. I don't think I'd be comfortable in a tuxedo all the time anyway.

 

[Jelfish]

Schools should keep itself in line by letting people do what they want and giving them a choice, not forcing peoples personal beliefs out of their life.

By people, you are also referring to mentally malleable K-6 children. They don't always know enough to be able to make choices, so when you say, as the all-knowing teacher, that "a magic stork drops babies down the chimney, and that's how you were born," they'd believe it. Therefore, they have a responsibility to not (accidentally) proselytize young children.

 

[pattylou]

I didn't know the first amenmdent was a non-issue...

That's exactly the point. Show me an atheist who gives a fig how you greet them at Christmastime. There aren't any. We have better things to obsess over.

O'Reilly's pretending there's some "war on Christams." There isn't.

Merry Christrmas, Pengwuino.

-Patty

p,.s. you might (or might not) enjoy reading this thread:

http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/index.pl?read=91062

I have heard this over and over and I just don't get it. Where are the massive protests against "mentioning christ"? Where are the business boycots against those mentioning christ? I just don't see any.

What I see is advertisers makeing a choice probably based on polls and demographic studies and christians getting their panties in a wad over another non issue.

Above we have Mark warning against "drilling atheisem into kids to much" (!) while christians are complaining that people aren't useing the word "christ" in everyday conversation enough. Talk about drilling.

This is the most screwed up non issue complaint I have heard from christians in some time. (Well, several weeks anyway.)

 

[Pengwuino]

By people, you are also referring to mentally malleable K-6 children. They don't always know enough to be able to make choices, so when you say, as the all-knowing teacher, that "a magic stork drops babies down the chimney, and that's how you were born," they'd believe it. Therefore, they have a responsibility to not (accidentally) proselytize young children.

But its federal law that you should let these kids celebrate whatever religous holiday they want, its the 1st amendment, you can't force religion or non-religion on someone. If some 8 year old has a santa hat or a cross on or something, that is not in the bounds of the US constitution. Teachers arent exactly going around telling people to be Christians and letting a kid sing christmas carols is about as unconstitutional as a teacher letting a child sing his or her favorite disney song.

 

[Pengwuino]

Im sorry that you are so impressionable pattylou but you might want to go ask the ACLU as to who has a problem with Christmas since... yah ... they tend to sue a LOT of people over it. Maybe if you stopped listening to journalistic dropouts on their blogs, you would be more open minded and see the crap christians have to deal with instead of selectively picking out bits and pieces here and there to believe.

 

[Jelfish]

But its federal law that you should let these kids celebrate whatever religous holiday they want, its the 1st amendment, you can't force religion or non-religion on someone. If some 8 year old has a santa hat or a cross on or something, that is not in the bounds of the US constitution. Teachers arent exactly going around telling people to be Christians and letting a kid sing christmas carols is about as unconstitutional as a teacher letting a child sing his or her favorite disney song.

Right - and I acknowledge that distinction that there's a cultural and religious dichotomy with Christmas. And I even said in my first post that it's not worth the controversy and annoyed parents and children to filter out a cultural celebration because of a religious tie that most people don't acknowledge anyway. In the end, the people who are hurt most are the people who want Christmas to be purely religious.

 

[Curious3141]

Why wouldn't someone be ok with that?
Speaking of muslims, this one muslim girl i knew in high school said she had to pray 6 times a day. Now the thing I wonder about is what happens during school hours? I never noticed any muslim children ever pray... and I'm sure the school wouldn't be able to forbid them from doing that or else that's outright religious persecution right there (but then again schools are forbidding voluntary/personal praying already).

You'd really be OK with that ? Then I must say you're a better person than a lot of other Xians out there. I'm sure many others would be upset by such a thing. But one must be fair, if the Xians can celebrate what is essentially still a religious holiday (it's Christ-mass), then so can any other religious group; in fact the freethinkers should be allowed to do something on freethought day (October 9th or thereabouts).

Muslims have to pray a certain number of days a day. They have to get out a prayer mat, kneel facing Mecca and carry out their devotions. I don't think schools should stop this, and neither should Xian students be forbidden from carrying out their own prayers. What should definitely be disallowed is school endorsed group prayers of any sort, especially those officiated by some sort of school official. That should be a strict no-no.

EDIT : Why is it that when I edit my posts (I'm using Opera), the paragraph spacings disappear ?

 

[Pengwuino]

Whats a xian? I'm assuming a christian...

I don't see how they know where Mecca is all the time. Hell if someone told me to go north at a cross-street, there's exactly a 75% chance i'd end up going the wrong way for christs sakes.

 

[pattylou]

Im sorry that you are so impressionable pattylou but you might want to go ask the ACLU as to who has a problem with Christmas since... yah ... they tend to sue a LOT of people over it. Maybe if you stopped listening to journalistic dropouts on their blogs, you would be more open minded and see the crap christians have to deal with instead of selectively picking out bits and pieces here and there to believe.

??

What journalistic dropouts? I linked you to a message board site where numerous atheists have shared their personal experience (which is, that they don't really care whether you talk about Christmas or not.). I'm agnostic, but their experience lines up with my own. I don't know anyone that gets hung up on the words, and I wish Merry Christmas to people. Always have, always will, unless I know they're Jewish or Muslim.

The only "War on Christmas" I have seen is an unsubstantiated claim made by the religious right. I'm happy to be corrected on that, but I don't plan to go fishing around ACLU when you obviously have the links at your fingertips.

Thanks in advance for providing them...

 

[mattmns]

EDIT : Why is it that when I edit my posts (I'm using Opera), the paragraph spacings disappear ?

It is a problem with Physics Forums, not your browser. We all get that same behavior.

 

[Pengwuino]

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=2227

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/newspage.asp?story=1498

etc etc.

holy crap the forum is going screwball. I just saw like, 2 pages merged in some weird funky way.

 

[Curious3141]

Whats a xian? I'm assuming a christian...

I don't see how they know where Mecca is all the time. Hell if someone told me to go north at a cross-street, there's exactly a 75% chance i'd end up going the wrong way for christs sakes.

Maybe you should ask a Muslim this, at any rate, it can be done with an advanced little device called a compass.

Facetious remarks aside, there really are advanced GPS based locators for Muslims that can point you accurately to Mecca.

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah i figure that's something you would need... but I've really never seen ANYONE, muslim or not, with a campus on them outside of like some 4th grade science class.

 

[scott1]

refer to Christmas trees as “magical trees"

The school will get yelled at that since some people believe that calling things
"magical" is evil
The school should call them intellgent design tree's instead

 

[rachmaninoff]

I think it's disgusting that people are making a joke out of freedom of religion. Comparing "happy holidays" to an attack on religion is an insult to all those who don't have these freedoms, to those who know what religious persecution really means.

 

[Pengwuino]

I think it's disgusting that people are making a joke out of freedom of religion. Comparing "happy holidays" to an attack on religion is an insult to all those who don't have these freedoms, to those who know what religious persecution really means.

Don't by hypocritical, I've seen you back complaints about practically trivial aspects on "privacy issues" in PWA without a second notice as to what happens in countries where privacy literally isn't an issue (and no, it's not because they have a lot of it).

 

[rachmaninoff]

Avoiding the subject?

 

[Pengwuino]

Avoiding the subject?

I guess you can say that is what you are doing. Unless saying this whole thread is useless because someone else has it worse is some sort of argument as to the constitutionality of the actions in these articles...

 

[Entropy]

Christmas should not have anything to do with schools. If you want to celebrate it, fine, celebrate it at home. And it is not a Christian holiday, considering it as such is an insult to Christianity, but even as such it is still a religious holiday and has no place in schools.