So much for freedom of religion

[Wishbone]

In elementary school, our music teacher made us sing Christmas carols for a school concert. I'm not Christian. Why should I have been forced to sing the praises of Jesus? I didn't complain because I didn't know anything about Christianity, and that's why it didn't bother me. I know my parents were a bit disgruntled to know that I didn't learn anything new in school that day because the school decided to take the day to celebrate Christmas.

Now, I used the word "endorse," which is a relatively weak word. Considering one of the definitions of "endorse" is "To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement" (dictionary.com), I think that qualifies.

And thank you for the kind riposte.

Wrong, because you aren't giving approval to anything. If you want to sit out of the gingle, sit out and read a book. What this is about is people feeling bad they aren't part of the holiday's so they want to make the other 99% miserable also. No one is endorsing or supporting any religious ideas by singing noel.

Also, its important to note that singing a jingle doesn't mean you support it, nor listening to it doesn't mean you support it. Singing songs about a national holiday, and another popular holiday around the same time, doesn't mean you endorse them. A lot of radio personalities read commercials, their reading them doesn't necissarily give them the endorsement. I'm sorry if you feel left out, but really that is your choice, but just because you are hurting yourself, and making yourself bothered doesn't mean you should ruin it for other people.

 

[Wishbone]

Exactly. The only reason why there is a surge in this "get Christmas out of our government" movement is that it's in response to Christians realizing that Christmas has lost touch with their religion and trying to convert it back from a secularized celebration (which, in my opinion, is a noble task). But then you can't have it both ways. Either Christmas is fully a religious holiday or you have the secular and religious dichotomy.

I would like to see some data about this, because especially overseas, and I think here also, it is definetley celebrated as a religious holiday more than anything else. I would even say that the good cheer, politeness, happiness, etc. is a celebration of Christianity in itself. No matter what you believe.Also, on the question of whether there is a "war on Christmas" is really a semantic argument. Its kind of a trivial debate. We all know there are "battles" like this one going on, some may say that these battles, collected together make a war. However, once one recognizes that there are such battles going on, that's what's important.

 

[Jelfish]

Wrong, because you aren't giving approval to anything. If you want to sit out of the gingle, sit out and read a book.

So when a school takes the day off to celebrate what you say is a mostly religious holiday, it is not endorsing the religion? I didn't have the choice to attend class instead of celebrate that day. If I were to sit out and read a book, that would defeat the purpose of going to school.

What this is about is people feeling bad they aren't part of the holiday's so they want to make the other 99% miserable also. No one is endorsing or supporting any religious ideas by singing noel.

I'll be honest - it's hard to take you seriously when you're being condescending. I enjoyed the school Christmas carolling and whatnot that day but not because it had anything to do with Christianity. You're dodging the point completely and if it's a matter of "what's all the fuss?" then you're admitting that the "Christmas" celebrated in schools is nothing but a secular celebration with vague unmentioned and unexplained religious roots. Otherwise, it would be clear that it shouldn't happen in schools.

 

[Jelfish]

I would like to see some data about this, because especially overseas, and I think here also, it is definetley celebrated as a religious holiday more than anything else. I would even say that the good cheer, politeness, happiness, etc. is a celebration of Christianity in itself. No matter what you believe.Also, on the question of whether there is a "war on Christmas" is really a semantic argument. Its kind of a trivial debate. We all know there are "battles" like this one going on, some may say that these battles, collected together make a war. However, once one recognizes that there are such battles going on, that's what's important.

Here is an excerpt of an anecdotal account (from a Christian perspective) of what Christmas is like in Japan:

At the end of November merchandising heralds the onset (onslaught?) of the season. Santa's show up in some advertising and Christmas carols can be heard in stores. (In English!) Also advertisements appear for special Christmas eve and Christmas day hotel & restaurant dinners and shows, generally with a strong romance theme. More and more Christmas lights are going up each year (probably a thousand per cent increase in the seven years we've been here) on stores and at malls, though I've seen few if any on private homes.

Christmas trees (artificial --- there is no live Christmas tree market) however, have begun to appear in the occasional home, and can be bought in big department stores. Santa does not yet appear in person, only as an advertising foil. And the airwaves are not clogged with TV specials.

There are two special Japanese Christmas customs:

First, the Daiku, or Great Nine, which refers to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. This is traditionally performed in many places at Christmas time (though probably as much in conjuction with the New Year), sometimes with huge massed choruses for the famous part with what American Christians sing as a hymn --- Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee.

The second custom is the Christmas Cake. Yes, friends, what Christmas would be complete without its Christmas Cake? How have you survived without one so long? Well, it's a blessing to the Japanese bakery industry, that's for sure, because this is not a home project. One buys it. And the Japanese are generally slack jawed when told that America knows no Christmas Cake and it's a Japanese custom.

Christmas is basically overshadowed by New Year's celebrations, sort of the opposite of America. In Japan Christmas is a subsidiary holiday, most treasured by merchants, I think. Christmas day, for example is not a holiday from work. Hence, most churches will have their special Christmas worship services on the nearest Sunday before the 25th and perhaps on Christmas eve.

Most Japanese naturally have a weak understanding of Christmas's religious roots and customs. I remember one Japanese pastor being asked if it's Santa's birthday. Christianity is respected in Japan but hardly known at all, which is not too surprising with less than 1% being Christian. However, many Japanese are interested in American Christmas customs and some Japanese churches take advantage of this to meet new Japanese and introduce them to Christmas, Jesus, and their church. For example, I work with a small (averaging 30 people on a Sunday morning) church in Misato, that has a special Candle Service, two kids meetings, three American Christmas programs, lots of special Christmas decorations and a gift pack handout for all guests during December. Through this they draw an extra 300-400 people to church.

http://www.cvc.org/christmas/japan.htm

According to wikipedia, about 1.7 million of the 127.4 million people of Japan are Christian (according to Wikipedia)That's just one example, of course and I realize that in some parts of Europe, it's much different. However, this complete secularization of Christmas isn't some sort of myth.

 

[Wishbone]

Here is an excerpt of an anecdotal account (from a Christian perspective) of what Christmas is like in Japan:http://www.cvc.org/christmas/japan.htm

According to wikipedia, about 1.7 million of the 127.4 million people of Japan are Christian (according to Wikipedia)That's just one example, of course and I realize that in some parts of Europe, it's much different. However, this complete secularization of Christmas isn't some sort of myth.

Right so you just proved that the non-Christians don't celebrate the Christian faith...good job...good work... And yes complete secularization of Christmas is a myth, it is not completely secular. I don't think that is even majorly secular. And let me reitorate, the good cheer and happiness, and w/e is a celebration of Christianity in its own way.

 

[Hurkyl]

Right so you just proved that the non-Christians don't celebrate the Christian faith...good job...good work...

And yet, they celebrate Christmas. When you put these two observations together, you conclude that celebrating Christmas doesn't imply celebration of Christianity, right?

 

[Wishbone]

And yet, they celebrate Christmas. When you put these two observations together, you conclude that celebrating Christmas doesn't imply celebration of Christianity, right?

Did someone say it has to?

 

[Jelfish]

Right so you just proved that the non-Christians don't celebrate the Christian faith...good job...good work... And yes complete secularization of Christmas is a myth, it is not completely secular. I don't think that is even majorly secular. And let me reitorate, the good cheer and happiness, and w/e is a celebration of Christianity in its own way.

I'm so sorry that you don't approve of my "proof."

If you're attempting to convince me of anything, you should know that your authoritative-like statements aren't working. If they're just your opinion, then fine. You're entitled to it and I disagree. The end.

 

[Wishbone]

I'm so sorry that you don't approve of my "proof."
If you're attempting to convince me of anything, you should know that your authoritative-like statements aren't working. If they're just your opinion, then fine. You're entitled to it and I disagree. The end.

haha well if you read them as athoritative, well that might be your first problem. But well, if you disagree and you think that's what Christmas is, well, have fun with that btw: I am not sure what that "proof" is supposed to "prove", but if its to "prove" that Christmas is completley commercial or whatever, then you need to go to "school".

 

[Jelfish]

haha well if you read them as athoritative, well that might be your first problem. But well, if you disagree and you think that's what Christmas is, well, have fun with that btw: I am not sure what that "proof" is supposed to "prove", but if its to "prove" that Christmas is completley commercial or whatever, then you need to go to "school".

They are authoratative-like because you give no explanation to those statements. You don't even attempt to put any substance in your arguments. Or were you expecting me to go in search of evidence to prove you wrong so you can retort with another cool one-liner? Sorry, I'm not interested in your wild goose chase.

I know my earlier post isn't proof. That's why that word was in quotes. It was alluding your implication.

Anyway, I'm done taking your bait. Merry Christmas.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

You know... wouldn't the greatest extent that the government could go to in regards to "endorsing" a particular religion or religeous holiday be to legally recognize the holiday as a national holiday? Outside ofcourse of making people observe the holiday which they practically do since probably a good sixty or more percent of businesses are all closed today and since it falls on a sunday it's almost manditory that several things will be closed on monday and/or were closed on Friday.
Not many people really complain about that though do they? Maybe because it means they get things like a day off, holiday pay, ect..
They definitely like to complain if the government does anything to support such a holiday that in no way benefits them or displeases their taste in decor.

 

[Dmstifik8ion]

There is an important consideration to be made in supporting the freedom of religion in both its beliefs and practices. As in all varieties of freedom, freedom of religion implies certain responsibilities. For any derived benefit comes a price; "freedom isn't free".

We all suffer or benefit personally from our beliefs depending on their validity, especially when we apply them to the practice of living. This personal responsibility is one thing and the effects that practicing our beliefs has on others is quite another. Believing that our actions are sanctified by ‘God’ does not relieve us of this responsibility.

We must all learn to respect the beliefs of others because right or wrong they are for each of us a foundation upon which we as individuals discover the truth.

I wish everyone a healthy, prosperous and

Happy New Year! ​

​

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

Freedom of religion is a farce. Religion is a philosophy, and, if there is freedom of religion, there should be freedom of philosophy. I should be free to believe whatever illogical nonsense I want. Why can't I be protected from the draft for being a non-religious pacifist? Freedom of religion is simply a necessary defense against religion until it is abolished. Freedom of religion was designed to allow people to practice beliefs that have no negative affect on society. Most religions are hierarchical and illogical and, as a result, corrupt society. The decision was only practical. Removing religious influence from any aspect of life should always be embraced.

You can, however, celebrate a non-religious Christmas. This involves the traditions of opening gifts without the celebration of the one embraced suicide by the church.

 

[BobG]

Removing religious influence from any aspect of life should always be embraced.
You can, however, celebrate a non-religious Christmas. This involves the traditions of opening gifts without the celebration of the one embraced suicide by the church.

That will probably take a little patience.

Currently, 59% of Americans feel Christianity is under attack (Fox News poll), 83% feel nativity scenes should be allowed on public property, 93% feel the phrase "In God We Trust" should remain on the currency, and 90% feel the phrase "under God" should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance.

It's not just Fox News, either. In Gallup Polls, 76% favor a constitutional amendment to allow voluntary prayer in school (even though 69% feel a moment of silence for personal prayer is the better option) and 75% feel the Ten Commandments should be allowed to be displayed on government property.

Protecting the rights of minorities is important, but doing so by suppressing the rights of an overwhelming majority has some unfavorable consequences, as well.

That leads to some unhealthy trends in politics (George Bush, for instance). 39% of Americans feel the religious right has too much influence in the Bush administration and the Republican Party while only 18% feel they have too little influence. The influence of the religious right is a hard thing to fight when 83% of Americans are Christians and nearly 3/4 of them think their religion is under attack.