So What is Spirit?

Iacchus32

For the same reason as already touched on; the conflicting claims that everything must have a foundation, then excluding energy from this claim.

You are doing it yet again; interchanging energy and spirit !

I believe there is a difference between a force and a consciousness, do you?
Yes, consciousness does act as a precursor upon force, in which case it makes greater sense to say that energy is not spirit itself, but more so the medium which exists between spirit and matter, and therefore contains elements of both.

In which case we have three things involved: 1) the intent or motive = "spiritual design" 2) the force or medium = the release of energy, and 3) the outcome or effect = the material world.

Thus I think it's possible to have both a spiritual world (that which is immaterial) and a material world, seperated by an invisible energy barrier, which serves as the go-between or medium between both cause (spirit) and effect (matter).

I don’t think the case has been made strongly enough for me to simply go along with accepting spirit as a given. Also, even if I did accept this, why should I feel confident that energy must be the key? Is it simply, to use your own words, because I can’t conceive of anything more basic than energy?
No, because the outcroppings of spirit are most often conveyed in terms of energy.

What kind of logic would that be?
The kind of logic that might facillitate an answer.

Does the universe limit itself to match my mental capabilities?!
And yet there does seem to be a message behind it all now doesn't there?

Just questioning obsessions people often have with creations coming out of Hollywood, that is all. Just because a viewer is presented with something that has a meaning for them doesn’t mean that the universe has to act accordingly.
Not every movie which comes out of Hollywood is run-of-the-mill. And this I think is one of those exceptions.

But now you are putting the emphasis on imaginings that take place during the sleeping hours and holding that they are more credible than the imaginings which take place during the waking hours. On what possible grounds, I ask, do you hold this to be true, and even more to the point; why should I ?
Mine is a perfectly valid assessment ... If in fact we do have a spirit, which is conscious, then what happens to that spirit when we die? I don't see how you can construe anything other than this from what I've said?

FZ+

Thus I think it's possible to have both a spiritual world (that which is immaterial) and a material world, seperated by an invisible energy barrier, which serves as the go-between or medium between both cause (spirit) and effect (matter).
How can you say anything about an energy barrier, if in the same sentence you say it is invisible? If it has an influence, then it plainly is visible by the effect it has, which would drag it right back into the material.

A fundamental inconsistency then - on one hand, we for no reason insist on the absolute intangibility of the entity, whilst on the other we insist on a significance for the entity that relies on its tangibility!

And yet there does seem to be a message behind it all now doesn't there?
No there doesn't. Bummer.

Not every movie which comes out of Hollywood is run-of-the-mill. And this I think is one of those exceptions.
Because it supports your own beliefs. What's the point?

If in fact we do have a spirit, which is conscious, then what happens to that spirit
Everybody "knows" differently:

It goes to heaven. It goes to hell. It inhabits the body of dear Woofie. It dances in Elysium. It joins the cosmic union. It sells books for $4.99. It vanishes in a puff of illogic and dust. Invisible dust. Iacchus32 Originally posted by FZ+ How can you say anything about an energy barrier, if in the same sentence you say it is invisible? If it has an influence, then it plainly is visible by the effect it has, which would drag it right back into the material. I only say it's invisible because it's there -- all about us and throughout us, and permeates everything -- with none of us being the wiser for it. Of course the fact that it leaves a signature and can be experienced on some level (not always) is another matter. A fundamental inconsistency then - on one hand, we for no reason insist on the absolute intangibility of the entity, whilst on the other we insist on a significance for the entity that relies on its tangibility! If spirit were somehow related to energy, as many claim, then we should be able to experience the effects of it as well, as many do, in which case it wouldn't be invisible either, as many suggest ... hence implying tangibility. And of course if energy were like a membrane that exists between two cells, chances are you're not going to know what occurs on the other side of it, although it will have its effect, because it's done such a good job of disguising itself -- hence, that which is "intangible." Hmm ... wouldn't this be akin to suggesting there was another dimension? Similarly, how often do you question what goes on inside your own body, without really thinking of it as "you?" I myself do it all time, while I'm sure everyone else does as well. So, why can't God operate through the "induction principle?" No there doesn't. Bummer. Does 1 + 1 = 2? If you say no, then I would suggest you missed the point. Because it supports your own beliefs. What's the point? At least I can claim to have something to support it, which is the whole point of this exercise don't you think? Speaking of movies, ever see the movie, The Matrix? ... Everybody "knows" differently: No doubt. It goes to heaven. It goes to hell. It inhabits the body of dear Woofie. It dances in Elysium. It joins the cosmic union. It sells books for$4.99.

It vanishes in a puff of illogic and dust. Invisible dust.
Indeed it does!

Guybrush Threepwood

Originally posted by Iacchus32

Originally posted by FZ+
How can you say anything about an energy barrier, if in the same sentence you say it is invisible? If it has an influence, then it plainly is visible by the effect it has, which would drag it right back into the material.
I only say it's invisible because it's there -- all about us and throughout us, and permeates everything -- with none of us being the wiser for it. Of course the fact that it leaves a signature and can be experienced on some level (not always) is another matter.
so, it's a barrier, but it permeates everything and is all about us and throughout us so it'n not really a barrier isn't it?

on what level can we experience it?

Royce

Energy is a barrier in the sense that we as physical humans can't cross it. It is everywhere and permeates everything and we experience it every moment that we are alive. It is so ubiquitous that we are not consciously aware of it as a fish is not aware of the water in which it swims. We can and do experience it on a spiritual level if not on a conscious physical level.

There is only one reality and it can not be seperated into different catagories or realms. It can be spoken or thought of as the spiritual, subjective and objective but they are not seperate realities. The question has risen many times; "How can the spiritual and/or sujective effect the objective?" The answer we have come p with is energy. Energy is the medium through which this happens. If it effects our spirit or consciousness, we call it spiritual energy. If it is what keeps us and everything else alive, we call it life energy. If it effects only the physical, we call it physical energy.

Since no one knows what energy is, it seems pointless to say what energy can and can't do or to think of only physical energy when speaking of the spirit or subjective. Everything is energy in one form or another. Everything that happens takes energy and uses energy.

FZ+

But then what stops me from just calling it an unusual variant of objective?

Iacchus32

Originally posted by Guybrush Threepwood
so, it's a barrier, but it permeates everything and is all about us and throughout us so it'n not really a barrier isn't it?
How do you define a radio wave, which effects can't be seen, felt or heard ... unless of course you have a means by which to convert it?

on what level can we experience it?
Perhaps as with the radio waves, "subconsciously" at first, that is, until we learn how to "tune in."

Guybrush Threepwood

Originally posted by Iacchus32
How do you define a radio wave, which effects can't be seen, felt or heard ... unless of course you have a means by which to convert it?
certainly not as a barrier.
From your point of view I can't be seen, felt or heard either .
Am I a energy barrier?

pelastration

Re: Re: So What is Spirit?

Originally posted by Mumeishi
Energy is not always invisible, in fact, energy is all that allows us to see anything at all - light. Matter is not always visible eg. air.
Even we don't 'see' matter at all. We capture the photons that are reflected or re-emitted from the surface of an object.

Royce

That is what our senses are, converters. They detect and convert energy of different forms, photons, vibrations, heat etc, into eltrochemical signals to be processed by our brains and perceived mentally. In this way our only contact with reality is via energy.
Our thoughts, emotions, experienses, our being, physical, mental and spiritual is energy. In one sense enegry is a barrier, we as beings of one form can not cross or change form. In another sense, energy is not just the medium but it is all that there is in one form or another.

As in this sense energy is all that is, if we do have a spirit or a characteristic which we call spirit is must then be energy.

FZ+

But energy is also fully material, so spirit must be by that argument material.

pelastration

Both of you are sticked in dualism. On the higher level energy/matter are the same. The key is just another orientation of spacetime. Since that dualism is embeded in several types of compositions in all our humans aspects it depends of which participating/observing part we use ... to 'appreciate' this or that part of dualism.

Guybrush Threepwood

Originally posted by Royce
In one sense enegry is a barrier, we as beings of one form can not cross or change form. In another sense, energy is not just the medium but it is all that there is in one form or another.
A barrier is suppose to separate something (IMO). So please tell me if the energy is a barrier and we are one one side (at least that's what I understood) what's on the other side?

pelastration

Keep in mind these are my own ideas.
A barrier is essential. It's also an isolator but also a conductor of oscillations.
This barrier has two sides.
To me this barrier is a membrane that is unbreakable and almost infinite elastic. You can get zones with double layers.

Now check these photo's: http://www.mu6.com/show5.html

On photo's 8 and 9 (inversed glove) you can see that 'something' on the other side will still deform spacetime (and gravitational influence us) without being visible to us.

We are just part of the same spacetime. Spacetime has several ways of manifestation. To us they seems to be different - and on our level they are too - but conceptual they are from the same source.

But you will understand that those two sides are all the time influencing each other. The barrier gives the interconnectivity.

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Royce

Guybrush,
I think that we, pelastration and me, are talking about two different things. I think that I am just as confused as you.

Pal, It seems to me that you are talking about cosmological branes and in that way they are actual interacting barriers if they do infact exist. Are you thinking that the spiritual reality can or does occupy one brane and the physical reality another? If so this is an interesting twist to brane, reality hypothesis. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It could indeed explain a lot couldn't it.

To answer your question Guy, what is on the other side is according to Pal, another different brane with different sets of Laws and properties; accordig to me, a different form of energy. If we want to delve into quantum electrodynamics, a different energy field that interacts with but is seperate from this field. This is as deep as I can or want to go and it is all pure speculation. I am getting in way over my head.

Hegira

Originally posted by Tom
"Conscious energy" is a fabrication of the religious mind, and has no connection to what physicists call "energy". [/B]
On the contrary... Religion is a fabrication of the conscious mind which is in turn existent because of energy. Conscious Energy and the awareness of self does not necessitate religion, but everything within our perception of physical and spiritual realities is the effect of energy (whether it is released or consumed for potential release)... Thus every form of energy relates and has its repective connection to "what physicists call energy".

pelastration

Originally posted by Royce
Pal, It seems to me that you are talking about cosmological branes and in that way they are actual interacting barriers if they do infact exist.
Indeed Royce. With one spheric brane you have enough. On local spots 'pelastrations' (penetrations through an unbreakable membrane) create double zones (holons) coupled by a type of pressure valve. these holons can also be called quanta or even condensates.
These holons can combine again to higher levels holons which will have are more and more layers (thus barriers) and these holons start to become less flexible (= more mass).

Originally posted by Royce
Are you thinking that the spiritual reality can or does occupy one brane and the physical reality another?
Yes but in each holon you have several of these branes laying over each other and they are all the time oscillating. But there is also the possibility that the spirit reality can be explained by the distant (non-local) communications between holons because specific excitations in one holon can be conducted OVER the membrane (since all layers in all holons come from the same membrane). Just compare this by us now using the Internet. This approach offers the possibility to link "holons" (like particles, atoms, genes, DNA, cells, humans, trees, earth, etc) with "communication". That's is solving the major enigma of the interconnectivity.
Conceptual I make thus a logic and simple connection between matter and energy, because both are intrinsic inside each holon, but are also part of the larger dynamic system that is in constant movement.

Originally posted by Royce
If so this is an interesting twist to brane, reality hypothesis. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It could indeed explain a lot couldn't it.
Indeed. With this approach you can explain what LIFE is and MIND (or consciousness).
The path to follow to come to that is:
1. The total brane system is in constant move.
2. Thus in each holon there is also constant move between the layers. (thus local: friction, EM, weak/strong forces).
3. The interactions inside each holon create locally a number of specific local oscillations.
4. Local oscillations have a feed-back on all the parent holons ( and up again) and also on the total brane system.

Example:
A. Location: a candy store. You take a lolly. A local holon (brain microtubuline) interacts with another holon (electric impulses related to the taste: sweet). A local microtubuline holon changes locally one of its membrane spots in a 'Knowledge knot' (a new sub-holon). It's stored now SWEET there.
Let's call this level of brain-activities the KITCHEN.
B. Now you go for dinner. A local holon (a tung cell) interacts with a food holon. Chinese sweet-sour dipping sauce! Electric impulses go to the brain. Some of the impulses excite the knowledge knot sweet ( "Hé ... I know this! It's sweet! ") but other electric impulses excite another microtubuline and make a new knowledge knot SOUR. Additional knowledge holons will be made from visual and auditive excitations, such as a knot: red sweet-sour sauce.
Knowledge (overview) can be called the excitation of a brane-connected group of knowledge knots making an 'association'.
Let's call this level of perception-activities the LIVING/DINNER ROOM.
C. Now it gets fun. After dinner you go on Internet and of course straight to physicsforums.com and you send a PM to Monique: "Hé Monique I have a great recipe for you: "Chinese sauce that is sweet and sour! Try it also. This is how to make it: ..."
Let's call this level of communication-activities the INTERNET.

So INFORMATION of local activities in A and B can also be transmitted over C ... and creating on distance an effect (since Monique goes straight to here kitchen and starts to make that sauce in Amsterdam ).

You can apply this approach on everything.
Finally you understand that GRAVITY is the stretching and interconnective effect of the brane and all it's holons. The more holons are concentrated on one spot the higher the mass of that group and the more gravitation effect we account to that group of holons.

Iacchus32

Originally posted by pelastration
But you will understand that those two sides are all the time influencing each other. The barrier gives the interconnectivity.
So perhaps energy becomes the barrier -- or "membrane" -- of which matter and spirit exists on either side?

By the way, do you believe that spirits exist as entities in and of themselves?

pelastration

Originally posted by Iacchus32
So perhaps energy becomes the barrier -- or "membrane" -- of which matter and spirit exists on either side?
The barrier or membrane - seen as unbreakable and almost infinite elastic - is imo the only source. From this we can come up with a lot of combinations in layering. Indeed matter and spirit can be on both sides too ... but once they couple inside a holon you have automatically a mirroring situation.

In religious terms:
Buddhists would say: emptiness (Sunyata). But due the dynamics it is also the universal womb (Tathagata in the Lankavatara Sutra): the combinations create the incredible complex chain of life, the wheel of Karma.
In Christianity we can say that God (the Brane) creates first the Spirit (in a first doubling), which creates in a second doubling the Son Jesus (more material).
Since we have in this concept a very strange layering result (from orientation perspective), which creates another second doubling with an EXTRA layer: the Devil (extra matter). You can find more of this on my website.

So you can find in this approach elements of the universal order of succession, you can see also resemblance with the Implicate Order of Bohm, and you find also Einstein spacetime together with the Quanta of QM ... bringing the particles of the Standard model. Is that a good concept?

Originally posted by Iacchus32
By the way, do you believe that spirits exist as entities in and of themselves?
This is indeed a consequence of this concept. There is no lost of energy. When we die we decouple our spiritual body - with holding it's essential spiritual knowledge knots - from the material body.
I see it like a black hole. Two previously coupled hyperspaces de-couple. The middle (center) draws back in a very small - high density spot - till it disappears. Then the two hyperspaces are separated again.
Your spirit is then free but still holds a number of knowledge knots which were made during your life.
So this concept explain reincarnation, and that implies also (independent) spiritual entities. These entities are also holons, which can re-couple with a new set of material holons (brought by the parents). They can also decay to previous hyperspaces (lets say free a deeper higher spiritual level).

You will understand that in this concept the discussion between matter and spirit make not really sense because it touches both. They are united in the concept. If someone says to me: this is a pure materialist theory ... I will confirm it ... but I will also confirm that it is a pure spiritual concept ... because duality is just a perceptual trap. It depends from what side you look to it.

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Iacchus32

Originally posted by pelastration
The barrier or membrane - seen as unbreakable and almost infinite elastic - is imo the only source. From this we can come up with a lot of combinations in layering. Indeed matter and spirit can be on both sides too ... but once they couple inside a holon you have automatically a mirroring situation.
Is energy by its nature intelligent? Or, does intelligence "rule" the use of energy? This is why I think a spiritual world exists, within its own parameters, much in the way a material world exists within its parameters. Whereas the spiritual world signifies the intelligence, which operates and passes through the energy medium or barrier, by which the material world becomes manifests and comes into being -- to serve as "God's footstool" so to speak.

I'm still not sure what you're referring to as the membrane? Would that be energy itself? And how would you account for intelligence, if it were also a part of the membrane? If anything, I think intelligence (mind/spirit/motive) would have to represent the one side of the membrane, by which through the use of energy, "dictates" to the matter (body/flesh/mechanism) what to do on the other side ... Just as the "conscious mind," through the use of the electrical fields of the body, conveys to the body what to do.

You will understand that in this concept the discussion between matter and spirit make not really sense because it touches both. They are united in the concept. If someone says to me: this is a pure materialist theory ... I will confirm it ... but I will also confirm that it is a pure spiritual concept ... because duality is just a perceptual trap. It depends from what side you look to it.
Yes, it is a perceptual trap, but one which can hardly be avoided. Much in the way a caterpillar can hardly understand what it means to be a butterfly, that is, until that time comes ...

Hegira

Here's something a bit "off the wall":

What if what we believe to be our Spirit and every thing we know or percieve is only a memory replayed by God!?

What I mean is... If God is "perfect", then it may atone by seeking out flaws amongst a seemingly unified chaos. More so it must still have a purpose, yet God may not KNOW its purpose and thus is compelled to search for it.

If "GOD" suddenly came to be instanly, then wouldn't there still be the eternal pondering of why!? Or how!? If so, then each and every thing within the known universe could be a "cell" manifested within their respective time-space (within God), set aloft to act out God's existence and play their part in an almost neverending mathematical equation.

I say "almost neverending" because I believe that should GOD ever find what it is seeking then it would also bring about its end! At that time the only thing left to experience would be peace and the only true peace is nothingness, which in turn may be the only true peace that anything within God may ultimately have.

I know I'll rest if I just die and fade, but if I continue in spirit, then I simply have more to do and experience... but eventually I would search out my own peace, even if it is to be the end of God, myself. This may all be a test, or preparation for the next realm, but overall it may be one large scale multi-dimensional race in which time and space simply doesn't matter!

--------
I try to think of everything, only to find that I never KNOW anything!

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Guybrush Threepwood

Originally posted by Iacchus32
By the way, do you believe that spirits exist as entities in and of themselves?
actually NO

Iacchus32

Originally posted by Hegira
Here's something a bit "off the wall":

What if what we believe to be our Spirit and every thing we know or percieve is only a memory replayed by God!?

What I mean is... If God is "perfect", then it may atone by seeking out flaws amongst a seemingly unified chaos. More so it must still have a purpose, yet God may not KNOW its purpose and thus is compelled to search for it.
I think that if we have order set against the backdrop of chaos, then what it suggests to me is that God "does" know His purpose.

If "GOD" suddenly came to be instanly, then wouldn't there still be the eternal pondering of why!? Or how!? If so, then each and every thing within the known universe could be a "cell" manifested within their respective time-space (within God), set aloft to act out God's existence and play their part in an almost neverending mathematical equation.
Of course what is a God without His creation? In which case one would almost have to think that His creation should be endowed -- or, at least appear in that sense -- with the capacity to act independently from its creator, otherwise how could you distinguish between the two? How could it be determined whether He existed or not?

I say "almost neverending" because I believe that should GOD ever find what it is seeking then it would also bring about its end! At that time the only thing left to experience would be peace and the only true peace is nothingness, which in turn may be the only true peace that anything within God may ultimately have.
I believe this "seeking" aspect has more to do with the creation seeking its source, rather than the Creator which is the source. God does not need to ask why, because God is the why.

I know I'll rest if I just die and fade, but if I continue in spirit, then I simply have more to do and experience... but eventually I would search out my own peace, even if it is to be the end of God, myself. This may all be a test, or preparation for the next realm, but overall it may be one large scale multi-dimensional race in which time and space simply doesn't matter!
Actually it would be more like coming into your own, into a place which is taylor-made and "resonates" to suit who you are (similar to the idea of karma returning to the source from whence it came), where you find yourself alternating -- and are hence refined -- between states of less resonance and more resonance, in which case it's a process that never ends. Whereas time and space don't exist as they do in the material world, but rather as a difference in intensity (time) and a difference in "relatedness" (space). This is so because The Spirit is in a constant state of flux (driven more so by thought and intent and is always changing) and there is no means by which to measure it "linearly."

Iacchus32

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Whereas time and space don't exist as they do in the material world, but rather as a difference in intensity (time) and a difference in "relatedness" (space). This is so because The Spirit is in a constant state of flux (driven more so by thought and intent and is always changing) and there is no means by which to measure it "linearly."
One thing I would like to say here is that Spirit is derived from the instantaneousness of the moment -- where time and space "intersect" -- and plays off of the constant state of flux which exists between energy fields. Therefore, in order to maintain this, time and space cannot exist as it does in the material world, but rather, as a continous and incredibly "elastic state" (as pelestration would seem to imply) with its adaptations to both thought and intent.

So in this respect, a spirit can exist and have its being, and not be dependent upon matter, and hence time and space. Indeed, a whole hierachy of spirits can and does exist, much as our societies exist in the material world, except on a "higher plane."

Does that make any sense?

Zodiack_Sign

The state of general anesthesia implies a lack of consciousness, or awareness. Take, for example, patients who are intubated yet open their eyes to command at the end of surgery. In terms of responding to command, they are aware. Yet, frequently, they will not remember commands in the operating room, nor will they remember extubation. Thus, they are aware without recall. The challenge to anesthesiologists is to eliminate recall of unpleasant experiences during surgery.

Recent prospective studies suggest that the incidence of awareness in the form of cognitive (response to command) and non-cognitive (dreams, REM) varies from 0.0015% to 0.2%. To put this in perspective, assuming 20,000,000 general anesthetics are performed in the United States each year, the number of patients suffering from awareness with recall will be between 30,000 and 40,000. It is noteworthy from the largest scale study that the incidence approaches 0.2% in cases where neuromuscular blocking agents were used but is approximately half that in the absence of such drugs. Furthermore, although non-paralyzed patients recalled intraoperative events, none of them had anxiety during the wakefulness or had delayed psychiatric symptoms. In contrast, when neuromuscular blocking agents were used, 78% of aware patients had pain, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

Since patients will often not spontaneously report the occurrence of awareness with recall, the following set of questions has been proposed as an instrument to assess the occurrence of awareness:

1. What is the last thing you remembered before you went to sleep?
2. What is the first thing you remembered when you woke up?
3. Can you remember anything between these two periods?
4. Did you dream during your operation?

Awareness during General Anesthesia
Peter S. Sebel, M.B. B.S., Ph.D., M.B.A.
Sorry for the late response...I just got here.