Part of what bothered me about this post is that I know a lot of people, such as you that I respect very much, who agree with your position on this issue. Inspite of this, I just could not let it go without posting my gut feeling on the site (I know it is not your website).Tsunami said:Artman -
First of all, this is not my site. I saw a spot about it on CNN and thought I'd post it. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it. I'm exercising my right to freedom of speech (while I still have it - it's on its way out you know -
along with freedom of the press
and our right to privacy through the lovely Patriot Act).
I'm also sorry that these people exercising their right of freedom of speech bothers you. I love ya Artman, but to say that it is unpatriotic is almost laughable. These people are patriots who are ashamed of their government's actions - and want the world to know it. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most of the world thinks that what Bush is doing is wrong and we agree with them. Thank God for the internet. It allows the PEOPLE to share themselves. (I love hearing from our PF members from the Middle East and Europe - about what they are going through over there and their perspectives on world events.)
It's not Bush. I've lived with bad presidents before. But the tide is turning. The freedoms we have fought long and hard for are now being taken away, one by one. I'm sorry you can't see that. I see it all around me.
Actually, I take that back. It is Bush to a certain extent. You see, I can see nothing good coming out of a fundamentalist christian nuking it out on a world stage with fundamentalist muslims. I view this as a modern day fundamentalist christian Crusade. Bush himself even used the word right after 9/11. He apparently got his hand slapped for that, as he has never used the word again. (There was quite an uproar about it...) I, personally, want no part of his 'Crusade'.
Threatened with death? Clearly, there is more to this than just the election, so I'll let it go.Ivan Seeking said:Since we live six miles from a small town in a fairly remote area of Oregon, we have struggled with economic hardships, anti-Californian hatred and disdain and other related prejudices and difficulties. I have been threatened with death and was harassed for a better part of ten years. It got so bad that for a time we even had our phone tapped by a court order. There is no doubt in my mind that for a time my life was in jeopardy, but no one, and I mean no one is going to tell me where I can and can't live - It reached the point where I didn't care if they did kill me. I wasn't leaving.
Wow Ivan I am worried about your decision. When one is upset, it is so easy to take events of the moment and generalize about the whole. I think you are being impatient with the electorate.Ivan Seeking said:I can guarantee that there is nothing that I or anyone can say that would insult you as much as I have been offended by the 51%. To use the word treason when referring to a harmless internet protest is an example of why all true patriots are outraged. This is called freedom of speech - remember that little thing called the Constitution?
Our final act as true and loyal Americans who love our country very deeply is to leave. It is all that we have left as patriots. We are leaving because we are afraid of what's happening here. We are leaving because far too many Americans don't value the very things that made this country great. We are leaving because I see far too many parallels to the mind of Nazi Germany. We are leaving because we can't stand to watch it happen.
We are not going to get over it, so get over it.
Yeah, but all the right-wing stuff won't last. And hoping for an informed electorate????? :rofl: So you really think you find it in Canada, eh? (Move back to California - north. Here in the "wine country" you'll find quite the liberal haven . . . too much for me sometimes.)Ivan Seeking said:Protestors in cages, people forced to leave rallys because they were wearing shirts that say "Protect our Libertys", the mother of a dead soldier arrested for a peaceful protest, all but Republicans banned from seeing Bush in Portland...and forced to sign a pledge of allegiance in order to see Bush, reporters being jailed for refusing to reveal their sources, an entirely new class of prisoners created just to avoid the rules of the Geneva Convention. I see the most dangerous abuse of power at every level, The Patriot Act... the list of offenses is so long that it would take some real effort to even list them all. But this is not what scares me. What scares me is the lack of outrage at all of the above. Freedom requires an informed electorate that values the rule of law; not only the law as applied to you and me, but the law as applied to our leaders. What I see is that people just don't care; and they won't until the offenses become so obscene that it becomes intolerable. I just don't see what's going to stop it now. The vote was the safety valve; we elected an enemy of democracy. But this time he will likely appoint three supreme court judges and he will leave a legacy of damage that will take decades to repair, at least.
That works for me!Artman said:I think we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.
AbsoLUTEly!! :!!)(Hope we are still on for the RV ride to Tom's Birthday Bash)