# Space without time?

1. Feb 2, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

I have a question,why is time and space inseperable,that is,why can't one exist without the other?

Oh and I have another question,would a photon be able to exist without space?

Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
2. Feb 2, 2008

### Shaun Culver

Space & time are bound together so tightly, that the higher the velocity of a particle relative to any inertial frame, the slower time passes. No, a photon would not exist without space. Space is a prerequisite for observation and experiment...ergo, the question is meaningless.

3. Feb 2, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

So what would happen if I took time away from space? (I am ignoring matter right now)
If the answer is space would cease to exist I'd like to know why,I'm sorry I should of been more clear.

Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
4. Feb 2, 2008

### Shaun Culver

"The End of Time" by J. Barbour.

I don't see how this would work though.

"If the answer is space would cease to exist I'd like to know why,I'm sorry I should of been more clear."

Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
5. Feb 2, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

Well I read in alot of places time cannot exist without space and space cannot exist without time. If this is true why? Anyone?

6. Feb 2, 2008

### Shaun Culver

I don't think time or space by itself has any physical/measurable consequences that can be predicted by mathematical models created by human beings. They can exist separately only mathematically.

7. Feb 2, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

Ok they can only exist seperatly mathematically and not physically, --->why?<----

8. Feb 2, 2008

9. Feb 2, 2008

### Shaun Culver

It is important that you realise how important experimental confirmation of any mathematical notion is in physics/science. Experiment and observation hold the final word to truth in science. I could come up with an infinite number of mathematical ideas. (eg. time without space; space without time..being but two cases) The only ideas that survive are those that agree with experiment. If you claimed that all you needed is time to model the orbits of the planets, you would have a hard time finding experiments to confirm your idea. If you claimed that all you need is space to model nuclear decay rates, you will be stuck once again. Modelling nuclear decay rates while a planet orbits the sun has been done experimentally, but not without space AND time.

Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
10. Feb 2, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

Good point,but where observation and experimentation are absent,we can use logic and reason. Einstein could never observe space and time being relative,mathametics was used. The problem is that mathametics cannot always be applied to reality,so how was he certain that time and space were as one and inseperable? Anyways thats not my question,basicaly this is how I'd like my question answered if possiable by anyone.

Can space exist without time?
(Yes or no) (Then Why)

11. Feb 3, 2008

### Shaun Culver

The "photon filled universe" may be something that exists without time, BUT, the proton has never been observed to decay...so this idea has no foundation, yet.

12. Feb 3, 2008

### Flatland

from a photon's "perspective" the universe is still a singularity. The photon can't be said to experience any space either.

13. Feb 3, 2008

### ZapperZ

Staff Emeritus
I would like to remind everyone involved to two very important points:

1. Please review the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374". There appears to be a propensity here to make unverified speculation. Please note that unless what you are posting is based on established physics or on peer-reviewed publication, then you are making a personal theory or an unverified speculation. This is not allowed on here outside of the IR forum.

2. If you do not stick with physics issues, but meander into esoteric and unverifiable qualities, then this will be moved out of the physics subforums and into philosophy. So the fate and quality of discussion of this thread depend on you.

Zz.

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2017
14. Feb 3, 2008

### Shaun Culver

Hi ZapperZ,

Could you point out what was said that motivated your post?

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2017
15. Feb 3, 2008

### Mentz114

ytilaerlaernu:
This can't be answered as it stands because as we say in Dublin "you're startin' from the wrong place".

Space cannot be defined except in relation to matter. Space means separation and location and only matter has these properties. So you have to have matter to have space. If nothing ever changed then there would be no time and no motion and we would not be having this conversation.

See the introduction to 'Space, Time, Matter' by Herman Weyl (1918).

16. Feb 3, 2008

### ZapperZ

Staff Emeritus
No, because the posts have been deleted.

If you see your posts still around, then they are fine.

Zz.

17. Feb 3, 2008

### ytilaerlaernu

Ok well I read a little more,mostly einstein's stuff. From what I read space and time are interwoven with eachother,inseperable. That makes sense because space is not nothing,it is something with a structure,and if it exists it needs a time in which it exists. There is still debate though wether space time can exist without matter, I think it can.

Last edited: Feb 3, 2008
18. Feb 3, 2008

### Mentz114

It's amazing what one can learn in 10 minutes reading.

Don't assign physical reality to mathematical constructs.

This is meta-physics. Discussions about 'existence' belong in the philosophy forum.

Your original questions are of no practical significance. Time is change, if there is no change there is no time. If there is no matter there is no space, despite any snippets of GR you might have read.

19. Feb 3, 2008

### Shaun Culver

How will you test your theory?

20. Feb 3, 2008

### matheinste

Hello all.

I feel that problems, questions etc of this sort have been approached by many brilliant minds over the centuries and are not likely ever to be answered to the satisfaction of everybody. However my reading of philosophy is limited in time to pre twentieth century and even then is limited in its depth. If the original poster's questions do now have a widely accepted resolution i would like to hear these resolutions.

Matheinste.

Matheinste