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Speaking of Tesla (the roadster)

  1. May 31, 2010 #1

    baywax

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    Check it out!

    The Tesla... range, 400k, performance 0 - 100k in 3.7 seconds... sleek and wow... re-charge off your regular outlet... or solar or wind...

    The whole story...

    http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/28052010/3/finance-business-electric-tesla-roadster-makes-canadian-debut.html [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 1, 2010 #2

    Chi Meson

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    A breakthrough! The Tesla can be plugged into water!

    I've got water!

    :snarky:
     
  4. Jun 1, 2010 #3
    Ya and I got a bunch of wind mills...
     
  5. Jun 1, 2010 #4

    baywax

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    We've got more than enough water here. Haven't seen sun for 3 weeks. Its really hard trying to plug into a rain drop.:wink:
     
  6. Jun 2, 2010 #5
    if they could get the price of these down to a Corvette, i think they'd sell
     
  7. Jun 2, 2010 #6

    baywax

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    The top package for a Chevy Corvette is something like this

    Corvette ZR1 1SD Package

    $142,980 MSRP*

    Then you add the gas to run the baby.

    The Tesla is running now at about $125,000 with no gas required and a recharge costing a few cents. Also, no noise, air pollution.

    I wonder though if more people will be endangered by the silent nature of these electric vehicles. As it is you can hear a Corvette or Lambo coming at you...... unless you have your ipod earpods blasting in your ears.
     
  8. Aug 2, 2010 #7

    mheslep

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    $101,500 after the $7.5k tax credit.
    https://www.teslamotors.com/own
     
  9. Aug 2, 2010 #8

    baywax

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    A little extra info is that it costs about 5 dollars to recharge the battery and its a 4 - 6 hour re-charge.. but there are ways to shorten that..

    And there's more........

    [URL]http://www.greenzer.com/blog/blog_image_store/2009/03/tesla-model-s-sedan.jpg[/URL]

    http://trendsupdates.com/tesla-model-s-an-electric-family-sedan-will-be-out-by-2012/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2017
  10. Aug 2, 2010 #9

    russ_watters

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    Unfortunately, there is a pretty enormous hidden cost to operate it not seen there: At $36,000 to replace the battery and a predicted lifespan of 160,000 km, that's $88 per charge. Of course, the cost of the first battery pack is built into the cost of the car, but you could always buy yourself $36,000 worth of gas upfront, when you buy a regular car too.
     
  11. Aug 3, 2010 #10

    mheslep

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    Well a full charge requires 53 kW-hrs of electricity. The average US rate of $0.10/kWh does give ~$5 per charge, but in Ca where most of the Roadsters are sold the rate is http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html" [Broken], or closer to $8 per charge. Anyway the energy cost per mile for EVs generally runs about 3X less than gasoline, and it is fair to assume that margin will grow, not decrease.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  12. Aug 3, 2010 #11

    mheslep

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    Yes, though 1) that limited lifespan is due to Tesla's use of traditional laptop style Li-ion batteries providing ~400 full discharge-charge cycles, and 2) seven years from now a 53 kWh battery will likely cost much less based on current trends, maybe $20,000.

    Make that same 53 kWh battery from the LiFePO battery chemistry used in the Nissan Leaf or the Chevy Volt and the lifespan would be a minimum of 790,000 km (http://www.a123systems.com/a123/technology/life" [Broken] charges * 395 km), with many batteries living past 1,100,000 km. In that case we would have the reverse problem of how to decouple the remaining battery value from the end of life vehicle value, which leads to battery swaps, battery leasing, etc, etc.
     
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  13. Aug 3, 2010 #12

    baywax

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    After the gulf spill I'm not going to even attempt to calculate the cost of a litre of gas in terms of environmental, economic and other upheavals... please feel free to work in those expenses... my guesstimate is that $36,000 worth of gas = about 1 litre. : ' •
     
  14. Aug 3, 2010 #13

    baywax

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    I like the battery leasing idea that Nissan came along with... as long as they don't round up all the EVs and trash them like they did in the 70s/80s. (see: "Who Killed The Electric Car")
     
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  15. Aug 4, 2010 #14

    russ_watters

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    Well that's just utter crap. The Gulf of Mexico produces some 500 million barrels of oil a year at a value of $40 billion. The spill will end up costing probably under $10 billion to fix. It's barely a drop in the proverbial barrel.

    You think that those lithium batteries carry no environmental cost of producing them? How much of that $36,000 battery cost do you think is to pay for the gas/oil it takes to produce it?

    It's nice to be an environmentalist, but environmentalism has to be rational, otherwise you risk ending up doing more harm than good.

    As much as it costs, I'd be shocked if there actually was any environmental advantage to driving a Tesla over a Prius.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  16. Aug 4, 2010 #15

    mheslep

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    Nissan decided against battery swap and leasing. It is Nissan's sister company, Renault, that is coming out with a battery swappable vehicle, the Fluence, next year along with the swap station operator Better Place. Renault is the only company doing swap so far, aside from a few niche fleet van and truck makers. Swap appears hard to do well technically, but I see no other choice to make pure, non-hybrid, EV's feasible in the large scale.
     
  17. Aug 4, 2010 #16

    Ivan Seeking

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    There is no evidence available yet about the extent of the damage, both short and long-term, to the ecosystems of the gulf, so your claim is completely unsupportable. In short, it is utter crap.
     
  18. Aug 4, 2010 #17

    russ_watters

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    Well that's completely wrong. There is lots of evidence - I'll bet you read a news article every day that discusses it! And there is a week old thread in P&WA with much relevant discussion/evidence: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=418994

    I seriously doubt that BP will provide ongoing cleanup at a high burn rate for an extended period of time because the oil is disappearing. Right now, it is looking like the actual cleanup cost will end up well under $10 billion.

    As of about 1 month ago, they hit $3 billion, including financial damages (payouts so far have been small, so it isn't a substantial fraction of the cleanup costs yet): http://www.aolnews.com/article/bps-spill-tab-tops-3-billion-as-cleanup-picks-up-again/19541845

    ....and the cleanup cost was $10 million a day at least in May: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/bp-says-oil-clean-up-costs-10-million-per-day-2010-05-09

    With the oil disappearing, there isn't much left for cleanup crews to do. So actual cleanup costs will probably end up well under $10 billion. Economic damage will be tougher to gauge, but the evidence so far points to well under the doom-and-gloom initial predictions. I'd be surprised if BP ever has to fill up that escrow account it opened.
    Um, well, ok - are you saying then you agree that the environmental cost of gas production is $36,000 a litre? Interesting choice of which cart to hitch your wagon to, Ivan.

    Could we please stop with the rediculousness in here? I know this is just GD, but this thread was actually semi-technical/factual a few days ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  19. Aug 4, 2010 #18

    mheslep

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    I believe just the opposite. We've been through this in other threads. The overall environmental impact of the energy and materials used in constructing a vehicle is smaller than the energy and emissions expended during operation over its life. They'll be some exceptions, maybe SOx emissions from electric power plants for instance, but overall it is no contest; the pure EV is much cleaner. I'll run it down again if you like.

    Note: this is not to say that I look at the Gulf spill and conclude oil transportation must end immediately; I do say that I'd put a heavy environmental finger on the oil side of a cost balance between oil and electric transportation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2010
  20. Aug 4, 2010 #19

    mheslep

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    See here: http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/research/beforeh2/files/kromer_electric_powertrains.pdf"

    Kromer et al goes on to state that GHG emissions and energy used in making the vehicle ('embodied' as they call it) increase 1-2% for an HEV like the Prius, and 2-2.5% for a PHEV like the Volt.
     
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  21. Aug 5, 2010 #20

    baywax

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    I think if we stacked up the number of birds killed by wind power generators, loss of agricultural land to dams, loss of agricultural land to solar power farms and the potential damage posed by nuclear power generators all used to provide the electricity that charges the Tesla....

    we might be even steven with the enviromental damage oil brings with it..., the wars, the economic downturn for the marine industries etc... etc.... the 32 billion in the bank for compensation... the 17 billion on clean up...
     
  22. Aug 5, 2010 #21

    russ_watters

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    While I agree that that is typically true, the difficulty I see here is that the Tesla is extremely expensive. So where does that money go? Is the fraction of a car's cost that is used to pay energy bills fixed or is the cost itself fixed?
    Ok - and the Prius uses probably half the gas of a typical car, while only costing a small amount more, so the "embodied energy" would be about 40% of the total lifecycle emissions, right? And a Tesla is around 5x the cost. So the question I asked above has a big impact on whether the Tesla is really better than the Prius.

    Remember, most of those other discussions we had focused on whether a Prius was better than normal cars in lifecycle emissions. I don't have any trouble accepting that it is. But Prius vs Tesla would be an entirely differerent issue.

    The Tesla gets a lot of hype probably largely for the coolness factor. But the Volt is really the car to watch.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  23. Aug 5, 2010 #22

    Mech_Engineer

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    My wife has an '06 VW Jetta TDI (turbodiesel engine), and that car is very sweet. On top of that, it gets very simlar mileage to my friend's Prius (38-42 for the TDI, 40-45 for the Prius), a lot better pickup, and no battery pack to boot. After driving the TDI I would have a tough time ever buying a Prius, the VW is a much more fun car (and a lot better looking than a Prius IMO).

    That being said, if I was millionaire I would buy a Tesla Roadster in an instant just for the cool factor. I wonder what a 10 year old one will cost down the road...
     
  24. Aug 5, 2010 #23
    It goes into the car and the batteries. You have to remember that this thing has as much carbon fiber as an A380 in order to keep the weight down. Plus its using other exotic materials all over the place such as very expensive rare earth metals in the motor to keep the power density up. During the prototyping phase, Tesla had a lot of troubles dealing with the weight of the batteries and not having the car fall apart when it took a hard turn.

    One thing to keep in mind that this thing is a very expensive and streamlined golf cart, not a race car. [/QUOTE]


    Absolutely.

    I'll keep my opinions of VW's to myself, but excluding the battery the Prius will outlast the VW. Well...assuming the brake pedal works and you don't drive the thing into a wall.
     
  25. Aug 5, 2010 #24

    mheslep

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    For the most part I expect it goes to the overhead of running a manufacturing rate of some ~800 vehicles per year (vs a big three 2-400k per year per model) The Tesla Roadster is a stunt, great for demonstrating technology, not for demonstrating that we've worked out all the problems with wide spread EV use.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  26. Aug 5, 2010 #25

    mheslep

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    While the Prius uses permanent magnet motors (i.e. rare earth Neodymium or Dysprosium), the Roadster's motor made by AC Propulsion is variable frequency 3-phase induction, all induction with no permanent magnets. Motor power density is about 4kW per kg.

    A 0-60mph in 3.7 secs golf cart.
     
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