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think

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- Thread starter think
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think

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- #2

Ambitwistor

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Originally posted by think

In quantum field theory, an electron doesn't have a shape: it is a point of zero size.

It also doesn't make sense for an individual electron, or even an individual molecule, to have a thermodynamic state (such as solid, liquid, or gas). The thermodynamic state of a material is determine by the combined statistical interactions of many, many particles. An individual particle, or even a small collection of them, does not have a well-defined thermodynamical state -- not even a temperature. Only a collection of particles can have a temperature, act like a solid, etc.

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- #3

benzun_1999

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You are asking weather electron are solid liquid are gas but now one knows wether an electron really exists? or weather it is a wave or a particle.

- #4

Chemicalsuperfreak

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Originally posted by benzun_1999

You are asking weather electron are solid liquid are gas but now one knows wether an electron really exists? or weather it is a wave or a particle.

We now that electrons exist, you're look at the results of electrons hitting the other side of your monitor. We know that they behave as both waves and particles, quantum mechanically those two terms are not mutually exclusive. And we know that they are not solid, liquid, or gases, because those are bulk properties of molecules and atoms, not subatomic particles.

- #5

benzun_1999

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though we can prove that electrons present when they hit the monitor. we still cannot prove that they exist when we do not monitor them.

- #6

Chemicalsuperfreak

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Originally posted by benzun_1999

though we can prove that electrons present when they hit the monitor. we still cannot prove that they exist when we do not monitor them.

You kind of sound like the little kid who thinks he is hiding when he covers his eyes.

Things don't exist when you can't see them?

- #7

benzun_1999

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This may look kidish but i think this might be true because to prove the existence of an electron you all ways need an wave, so i believe that electrons don't exist in an atom when they are not being interfeared by any waves.

- #8

joc

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- #9

Originally posted by benzun_1999

This may look kidish but i think this might be true because to prove the existence of an electron you all ways need an wave, so i believe that electrons don't exist in an atom when they are not being interfeared by any waves.

I can't see you...you're not a real person. You don't exist on this Earth and are useless in every way...now, see how stupid that sound? Apply it to your own words.

- #10

Chemicalsuperfreak

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Originally posted by benzun_1999

bso i believe that electrons don't exist in an atom when they are not being interfeared by any waves.

So then what holds molecules together?

- #11

mceddy2001

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- #12

benzun_1999

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Thanks mceddy, i am just trying to find mistake but hey superfreak the molecules are held together by an electric or magnetic wave caused due to inequality in charges. if we need to prove the existence of an electron we need an electric or a magnetic field which (can be assumed to be like some factor such as wave).Though it may look like foolish but take a look and tell me an experiment or any sort of proof that can prove that electrons exist without a wave or a field.

-benzun

-benzun

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- #13

joc

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- #14

benzun_1999

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i accept what you are telling joc because i am not good at either physics or chemistry. I am sorry about the grammatical errors, which i make because of my poor typing skills. I believe that if all of us think the same way we will only have a world that will tell we have reached the end but if each one thinks differently we will have a world that is ever expanding. Now let's return to the point can anyone please help me if i am wrong by proving or showing that electrons exist without a field or a wave.

-benzun

Please go easy on me.

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- #15

Originally posted by benzun_1999

i accept what you are telling joc because i am not good at either physics or chemistry. I am sorry about the grammatical errors, which i make because of my poor typing skills. I believe that if all of us think the same way we will only have a world that will tell we have reached the end but if each one thinks differently we will have a world that is ever expanding. Now let's return to the point can anyone please help me if i am wrong by proving or showing that electrons exist without a field or a wave.

-benzun

Please go easy on me.

Ummm..I'm not sure what you're talking about field or wave wise..but in electron beam wielding, a beam of electrons are shot at metal seams in a vacuum and the beam heats the metal and wields the seams. The electrons themselves produce a magnetic field (moving charges).

- #16

benzun_1999

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can you please explain it a bit more!

i feel that all atoms have a field.

i feel that all atoms have a field.

- #17

Originally posted by benzun_1999

can you please explain it a bit more!

i feel that all atoms have a field.

I thought we were talking about whether or not you think electrons exist. Soooooooooooo...

You can feel all the bull**** you want. That doesn't mean it's true. Drop what you think you know and start learning. An electron is a particle. You can fire one individually at a detector and pick it up. You can produce a beam of them easily by heating a piece of metal (like a needle or a filament) and produce a stream of them off of it. But they hit air molecules to quickly so they don't travel too far. If done in a vacuum, you can fire them at phosphorous and ta-da! you have a tv or monitor. Control that beam with magnetic fields and you can make a picture sweep to make moving pictures.

But to you question, what makes up an atom's properties are it's individual parts, the elmentary particles that make it up; protons, neutrons, electrons.

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- #18

benzun_1999

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Ok i accept that electrons exist...

What made me think like this is nothing but the schrodiengers cat theory.

-benzun

- #19

Originally posted by benzun_1999

Ok i accept that electrons exist...

What made me think like this is nothing but the schrodiengers cat theory.

-benzun

Schrodinger's illustration was an attempt at humor concerning superposition in the quantum world.

- #20

Surely the best way to consider the electron is as a wave carrying field. The field gives it its particle nature and the wave that by its own wave force extends beyond the field limits, gives it its wave form

- #21

quartodeciman

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Robert B. Laughlin Horst L. Störmer Daniel C. Tsui Discovery and theory of the fractional quantum Hall effect --->

http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1998/index.html

Horst L. Störmer "The Fractional Quantum Hall Effect" --->

http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1998/stormer-lecture.html

"Fractional charge is the most puzzling of these observations..."

"And yet we know with certainty, that none of these electrons has split up into pieces."

Störmer home page --->

http://www.phys.columbia.edu/faculty/stormer.htm [Broken]

"Novel electron quantum-fluids form, which exhibit fractional quantum numbers (such as 3/7, 5/11…) and they harbor objects that carry an exact fraction of an electron charge, e.g. 1/3 e."

"The interaction of many electrons rather than the property of any individual particle is at the origin of all such observation."

http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1998/index.html

Horst L. Störmer "The Fractional Quantum Hall Effect" --->

http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1998/stormer-lecture.html

"Fractional charge is the most puzzling of these observations..."

"And yet we know with certainty, that none of these electrons has split up into pieces."

Störmer home page --->

http://www.phys.columbia.edu/faculty/stormer.htm [Broken]

"Novel electron quantum-fluids form, which exhibit fractional quantum numbers (such as 3/7, 5/11…) and they harbor objects that carry an exact fraction of an electron charge, e.g. 1/3 e."

"The interaction of many electrons rather than the property of any individual particle is at the origin of all such observation."

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- #22

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding of fractional charges. I was relying on an article in SciAm which does not make this point clearly.

Have been enjoying the debate in

- #23

quartodeciman

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- #24

mormonator_rm

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This is quite interesting. Quarks are the only fundamental particles that we know of that have a fractional electric charge. It would be very interesting if an electron contains a quark and an antiquark; this could follow from the fact that a system composed of an down quark and an anti-up quark can couple into an electron and an anti-neutrino via virtual W- production (this is a common occurance in the decay of a neutron into a proton). If we can take this to mean that the (d + -u) system is equivalent to a (e- + -(v~e)) system, then it is possible that an electron is a composite of a down quark, an anti-up quark, and an electron-neutrino, in other words a system (d + -u + v~e). If the experiment mentioned in earlier post shows some results consistent with the electron containing fractional charges -1/3 and -2/3, then maybe we have something there. It would be an excellent confirmation of quark-lepton compositeness, just not in the way we were originally looking for it, and neutrinos would end up being the only fundamental leptons.

Now, in scatterring experiments, electrons do not show any scaling behavior, i.e. there is no energy dependence; hence the electron has always been considered a point-like particle, while mesons and baryons, which have scaling behaviors on order of 1/s^2, 1/s^4, etc., are clearly composites of smaller partons (quarks and gluons).

- #25

selfAdjoint

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- #26

mormonator_rm

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Good question. We must understand a few things about electrical charge in order to see an answer here. The electron charge is actually a composite of the isospin and hypercharge of a particle given by;

Q = I~3 + Y

where Q is the electrical charge in units of positron charge, I~3 is the isospin magnitude (an eigenvalue of the isospin number Iz), and Y is the weak hypercharge, which follows from;

Y = (b + S + C + B + T)/2

where b is the baryon number (0 for mesons, 1 for baryons, and -1 for antibaryons), and S, C, B, and T are the flavor numbers for the heavier quarks. The quarks each have baryon number 1/3, and the anti-quarks the opposite. Up and down quarks have I~3 eigenstates of Iz = 1/2, and the heavier quarks all have Iz = 0.

For example, the charges of pions (members of an isospin triplet) follow this rule: since they have no heavy quark flavors and a baryon number of zero, their charge is equal to their magnitude of I~3. So the pions have charges 1, 0, and -1, just as their I~3 eigenvalues are 1, 0, and -1 for the isospin triplet Iz = 1.

The proton and neutron also follow this, but they have I~3 eigenvalues of 1/2 and -1/2, and a baryon number of 1. So the proton has charge I~3 + b/2 = 1/2 + 1/2 = 1, and the neutron has charge I~3 + b/2 = -1/2 + 1/2 = 0. The lambda baryon gets more interesting, since it has strangeness (remember, the flavors of heavier quarks always have the same sign as the charge of the quark, hence strangeness of the strange quark is S = -1). So, the isospin-singlet lambda baryon has charge I~3 + (b + S)/2 = 0 + (1-1)/2 = 0. All of these answers follow perfectly the established pattern for finding the electrical charge.

So, you might ask, "why not just say that 3Q = I~3 + Y?" Well, its not that simple. For example, the neutral terms of the electro-weak Lagrangian are derived from hypothetical particle fields coupling to the isospin and weak hypercharge of a particle. The initial term, with arbitrary couplings g and g', is;

g(W~3)(I~3) + g'(B)(Y)

where W~3 and B are the pure particle states that would couple only to isospin and hypercharge, respectively. In reality, we have a mixture of these states determined by the Weinberg angle that mediates the weak and electromagnetic forces. The result is the (massless) photon field A and the (massive) weak neutral field Z. When we reform the equation to find the terms with the new fields A and Z, we find;

(I~3 + Y)(g sin(theta))A + (I~3 - (I~3 + Y)sin^2(theta))(g'/sin(theta))Z

(Sorry, I haven't taken the time to figure out the math symbols yet, I'm in a hurry!) When we take Q = I~3 + Y and e = g sin(theta) = g' cos(theta), we find the result;

QeA + (I~3 - Q sin^2(theta))(2e/sin(2xtheta))Z

Note that QeA is the familiar electromagnetic interaction, and the other term is the weak neutral current. As you can see, the positron charge e falls right out of the thing. And the isospin and hypercharge are the basis of the electro-weak interaction, leading to the electrodynamic term. To start using fractional charges as a basis could be extremely inconvenient for the electro-weak model and new physics, and would require some overhaul to the standard model that I think would be unnecessary. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would really make a mess.

Q = I~3 + Y

where Q is the electrical charge in units of positron charge, I~3 is the isospin magnitude (an eigenvalue of the isospin number Iz), and Y is the weak hypercharge, which follows from;

Y = (b + S + C + B + T)/2

where b is the baryon number (0 for mesons, 1 for baryons, and -1 for antibaryons), and S, C, B, and T are the flavor numbers for the heavier quarks. The quarks each have baryon number 1/3, and the anti-quarks the opposite. Up and down quarks have I~3 eigenstates of Iz = 1/2, and the heavier quarks all have Iz = 0.

For example, the charges of pions (members of an isospin triplet) follow this rule: since they have no heavy quark flavors and a baryon number of zero, their charge is equal to their magnitude of I~3. So the pions have charges 1, 0, and -1, just as their I~3 eigenvalues are 1, 0, and -1 for the isospin triplet Iz = 1.

The proton and neutron also follow this, but they have I~3 eigenvalues of 1/2 and -1/2, and a baryon number of 1. So the proton has charge I~3 + b/2 = 1/2 + 1/2 = 1, and the neutron has charge I~3 + b/2 = -1/2 + 1/2 = 0. The lambda baryon gets more interesting, since it has strangeness (remember, the flavors of heavier quarks always have the same sign as the charge of the quark, hence strangeness of the strange quark is S = -1). So, the isospin-singlet lambda baryon has charge I~3 + (b + S)/2 = 0 + (1-1)/2 = 0. All of these answers follow perfectly the established pattern for finding the electrical charge.

So, you might ask, "why not just say that 3Q = I~3 + Y?" Well, its not that simple. For example, the neutral terms of the electro-weak Lagrangian are derived from hypothetical particle fields coupling to the isospin and weak hypercharge of a particle. The initial term, with arbitrary couplings g and g', is;

g(W~3)(I~3) + g'(B)(Y)

where W~3 and B are the pure particle states that would couple only to isospin and hypercharge, respectively. In reality, we have a mixture of these states determined by the Weinberg angle that mediates the weak and electromagnetic forces. The result is the (massless) photon field A and the (massive) weak neutral field Z. When we reform the equation to find the terms with the new fields A and Z, we find;

(I~3 + Y)(g sin(theta))A + (I~3 - (I~3 + Y)sin^2(theta))(g'/sin(theta))Z

(Sorry, I haven't taken the time to figure out the math symbols yet, I'm in a hurry!) When we take Q = I~3 + Y and e = g sin(theta) = g' cos(theta), we find the result;

QeA + (I~3 - Q sin^2(theta))(2e/sin(2xtheta))Z

Note that QeA is the familiar electromagnetic interaction, and the other term is the weak neutral current. As you can see, the positron charge e falls right out of the thing. And the isospin and hypercharge are the basis of the electro-weak interaction, leading to the electrodynamic term. To start using fractional charges as a basis could be extremely inconvenient for the electro-weak model and new physics, and would require some overhaul to the standard model that I think would be unnecessary. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would really make a mess.

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- #27

Although this is a very crude way of accounting for interplanetary distances, it is surprisingly, the most accurate and the only one to predict the positions of all planets including the asteroids.

This suggest that somehow fractional charges are related to the wave structure and leads me to suggest that all natural waves contain the same total force or force carrier.

- #28

JohnBarchak

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Hi Think

The extended electron has a long and rich history. As Kirk T. McDonald points out in "Limits on the Applicability of Classical Electromagnetic Fields as Inferred from the Radiation Reaction",

http://www.hep.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/accel/radreact.pdf

H.A. Lorentz was one of the first to study the extended electron:

"The present formulation of the radiation reaction is due to Lorentz' investigations of the self force of an extended electron, beginning in 1892 [4] and continuing through 1903 [5]. The example of dipole radiation of a single charge contrasts strikingly with Maxwell's discussion of reaction forces during specular reflection. There is no net momentum radiated by an oscillating charge with zero average velocity, but energy is radiated. The external force alone can not account for the energy balance. An additional force is needed, and was identified by Lorentz as the net electromagnetic force of one part of an extended, accelerated charge distribution on another."

[4] H.A. Lorentz, “La Theorie ´Electromagnetique de Maxwell et son Application aux Corps Mouvants”, Arch. Ne´erl. 25, 363-552 (1892), reprinted in Collected Papers (Martinus Nijho®, The Hague, 1936), Vol. II, pp. 64-343.

[5] H.A. Lorentz, “Weiterbildung der Maxwellschen Theorie. Elektronen Theorie”, Enzykl. Math. Wiss. 5, part II, no. 14, 151-279 (1903), especially secs. 20-21; “Contributions to the Theory of Electrons”, Proc. Roy. Acad. Amsterdam 5, 608 (1903), reprinted in Collected Papers, Vol. III, 132-154.

For the MIE, BORN, INFELD NONLINEAR ELECTRODYNAMICS see:

http://216.239.39.104/search?hl=en&....cft.edu.pl/~b\irula/publ/BornInf.ps+born+mie

Possibly the best history of the extended electron appears in "The Electron: New Theory and Experiment" (http://www.neutrino.co.jp/abi_ftph/0-7923-1356-9.PDF [Broken] ) edited by David Hestenes, Dept. of Physics and Astronomy, Arizona State University, Tempe, USA and Antonio Weingartshofer; wherein A.O. Barut presents his history of the electron in "Brief History and Recent Developments in Electron Theory and Quantum Electrodynamics" This book is quite expensive and I have found no other source of Asim Barut's history of the electron.

There are now four active theoretical groups that I've read about that promote an extended particle:

Werner Hofer's Microdynamics

http://www.cmmp.ucl.ac.uk/~wah/md.html

Carver Mead's superconducting loops (See his book "Collective Electrodynamics")

Randell Mills' disc electrons

http://www.blacklightpower.com/science.shtml [Broken]

and the Commonsense Science electron rings.

http://www.commonsensescience.org/

There are some differences between them but all support the principle that an extended distribution of accelerated charge won't radiate and that the extended particle is held together by magnetic fields generated by moving charge.

HOFER

See "Internal structures of electrons and photons: the concept of extended particles revisited" by W. A. Hofer

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9806066

In the Oct. 2002 issue of "Materials Today" pp 24-30, Werner A. Hofer presented "Unraveling Electron Mysteries" which explains *scanning tunneling microscopy* (STM). The entire article was found at:

http://www.materialstoday.com/pdfs_5_10/hofer.pdf [Broken]

but I was unable to find it today. I do have an excerpt: In the Conclusion and outlook of "Unraveling Electron Mysteries" W. Hofer states:

"Given the evidence from STM simulations and experiments, it is difficult to remain in favor of the particle model of electrons. Recapturing the essentials of the preceding sections, we can say that:

(i) electrons are detected as extended charge distributions;

(ii) bonds form when the overlap of different regions of electron charge surpass a certain threshhold;

(iii) the magnetization direction of electron charge is detected in magnetic STM experiments;

(iv) the interaction between atoms is produced by charge redistributions and current flow; and

(v) the phase memory of traveling surface electrons is reduced by inelastic processes involving other electrons and phonons.

In fact, the only point where discrete properties of electrons still enter the picture is the statistical description of solid state theory. It seems that Don Eigler summed up the evidence when he said: 'I don't believe in this wave-particle duality... I think it's mostly just left over baggage of having started off understanding the world in terms of particles and then being forced, because of the quantum revolution, to think of the world in terms of waves...

Don't even think of them as particles. Electrons are waves. And if you think of them in terms of waves, you will always end up with the right answer.

Always'

This question, which touches the fundamental understanding of our physical environment, will certainly occupy scientists for some years to come. It is a fair guess, though, that its ultimate resolution will not substantially change the direction of research in STM. This research, and the profound insights it provides, has already taught us more about the nature of electrons than the wildest speculations could have envisioned twenty years ago. And it can be expected that ever more ingenious experiments, together with improved theoretical models, will ultimately improve our understanding sufficiently to

attain what is today often wishful thinking rather than scientific reality; the ability to construct electronic devices built of only a few atoms or molecules."

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- #29

think

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What are these extended electrons? Please explain it in simple language.

- #30

JohnBarchak

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Hi Think

The current accepted model of the electron is the point particle. All of the mass and charge of the electron are located at a single point. This causes infinite mass and charge densities at that single point. Many scientists and engineers refuse to accept models that have infinite densities. Richard Feynman invented a mathematical process called "renormalization" that allows calculations without the infinite densities, but even he was not completely happy with the process - he felt that he had "swept the problem under the rug."

Extended particle models do not have infinite densities since their mass and charge are distributed over an area or volume. The history of extended particle models is very illuminating since it shows the many attempts to reconcile the observed properties of the electron with various conceptual models.

As W. Hofer indicates, our technical abilities are allowing far more knowledge about the electron than the creators of quantum theory ever thought possible. It will be a tremendous challenge to our new engineers and scientists to fit this new knowledge into a coherent theory. As Einstein said, "You know, it would be sufficient to really understand the electron."

- #31

Not any longer. Go to Perdue University website and search for Koltick.

- #32

JohnBarchak

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I think that Koltick has something there, but I don't think anyone has changed quantum mechanics yet.

- #33

Ambitwistor

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- #34

I read that Koltick et al found that an electron consists of a nucleus surrounded by 'quantum pairs'. How does this equate to a point?

Can a point exist without a radius?

No two electrons in the same atom are exactly equal to each other, how can this be so if they are dimensionless points?

Are fractionally charged electrons larger, smaller or the same size as the 'point' electron?

If a particle is a point is its 'fine structure' within or without and does it have three dimensions?

From a purely particle structure viewpoint QP seems to raise more questions than it answers.

- #35

Ambitwistor

- 841

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Originally posted by elas

I read that Koltick et al found that an electron consists of a nucleus surrounded by 'quantum pairs'.

That's not accurate. The electron, which is a point particle, is "screened" by infinitely many pairs of unobservable virtual particles, which reduce the effective charge of the electron. The virtual pairs are polarized out of the vacuum by the electron's charge; they're not part of the electron.

Can a point exist without a radius?

That's the definition of a "point".

No two electrons in the same atom are exactly equal to each other, how can this be so if they are dimensionless points?

Electrons are indistinguishable particles, although electrons can occupy different states in an atom (e.g., have different energies, or spins, or whatever). Their existence as point particles does not preclude that.

Are fractionally charged electrons larger, smaller or the same size as the 'point' electron?

There's no such thing as a "fractionally charged electron". All electrons have the same charge, and zero size.

If a particle is a point is its 'fine structure' within or without and does it have three dimensions?

Point particles are zero dimensional and have no internal spatial structure. The words "fine structure" in quantum electrodynamics, as in "the fine structure constant", do not refer to some internal structure of electrons, but rather to the energy levels in an atom.

From a purely particle structure viewpoint QP seems to raise more questions than it answers.

I don't know what that means. Classical physics cannot account for microscopic phenomena, period; quantum physics can. Nor are point particles limited to quantum physics; they exist equally well in both classical and quantum theories.

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