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Medical Suicidal persons

  1. Feb 18, 2006 #1
    Alright we've all heard your generic Suicide hotline annoying scripted crap.

    "We care, we want to listen to you."

    While this might work generally. I was just thinking. It certainly wouldnt for me. Though I will never ever be suicidal. So perhaps I could never really understand what exactly is going through a suicidal person's head.

    But I would say Revenge or other such things. are very strong. What im wondering. HAs anyone tried to pull a person away from suicide and place them in a less destructive way, such as Revenge.

    Take your common suicidal person. and they have a bad life. This bad life is full of people abusing in some form to these people.

    Like im first to admit it. I would be a terrible psychologist although people i know(some friends) think i should go into psychology with a minor of philosophy.

    But this is how i would try dealing with a suicidal person who was being abused in some way.

    I would get them off from killing themselves, and instead of killing themselves. Get revenge for the injustices that has been done to that person. Then once they are onto getting revenge. You can break them off revenge and make them more passive.

    If anyone has studied Jainism I find it a very good religion. Great alternative to any of your younger religions which are barbaric(abrahamic religions for example) while i dont practice Jainism. I dont exactly believe in the whole jiva, samsara, nor karma.

    anyhow im wondering if you think im off base or think that revenge simply isnt strong enough to beat suicide.
     
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  3. Feb 18, 2006 #2

    Mk

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    If they are willing to kill themselves, in their perhaps temperary loss of sanity, why would you want them to be putting their mind to killing other people? I think its too risky to try.
     
  4. Feb 18, 2006 #3
    kill is a little to strong.

    Say Jane Doe is being raped by John Doe. She is suicidal. she simply wants to end it all. Why not get her into revenge. and give her the method to exact that revenge. Which is goto John and get evidence to completely implicated him in rape charges. then goto the cops and get your revenge. and with this success of revenge she will be "happy" and not suicidal.

    Like revenge usually can be exacted legally and correctly when people are being abused in some way. I wouldnt expect someone to be suicidal and you push them onto revenge and let the suicidal person decide what revenge it will be. I would find it very large incompetence on part of the psychologist if he did that.
     
  5. Feb 18, 2006 #4

    Math Is Hard

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    But revenge seems more destructive, not less destructive. There are consequences to consider.
    Is there such a thing as a "common suicidal person"? There are plenty of cases of suicides by people who have had so-called perfect lives. Sometimes just the burden of perceived perfection is too much to keep up.
    You can't solely factor in depression as a risk for suicide. You have to consider other disorders. For instance, bi-polar persons in the manic phase of the disease are at higher risk for suicide than when in the depressive phase. Couple the manic phase with substance abuse and the risk gets even higher. They have the energy to carry out the act.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2006
  6. Feb 18, 2006 #5
    Some people kill themselves as a form of revenge. I don't think your idea would work in that situation munky.
     
  7. Feb 18, 2006 #6
    I would find suicide, which is basically the most destructive you can be to yourself, the most destructive. and leaving revenge being the lesser of the 2 evils. and Revenge can be dealt with alot easier then with a dead person who was suicidal.
    Im just saying. Generally arent suicidal people who have some sort of problem. and this problem is generally laid with people. and ofcoarse there is another suicidal group which are the stressers. who are simply stressed so much that they cant take it anymore. These are the people who you get into Hedonism.:rofl: Not revenge.
    Im sorry ive never studied bi-polar. All i really know is from the media. So I really wouldnt like to argue on this. I concede my point for this group.

    and I admit. Certain groups of suicidal people need different methods. I was moving more towards people who are being abused by some sort of person.

    actually im sure there are these. but I wont believe any of these unless there is a note of sorts which prove this basically.

    Say Im in a situation where there is this person who is constantly abusing you, but the person "loves" you. So you kill youself in revenge. To cause them pain.
    I wouldnt kill myself in revenge. I would very much rather design a cunning plan which traps and destroys this persons. essentially abusing them. and then revealing them as what they are. Which then brings in the cops and so on.
    For a better explanation see above. With the rape victim.
     
  8. Feb 18, 2006 #7

    Math Is Hard

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    Yes, this is rational to you and I, but - you are assuming that these suicidal people are in a rational frame of mind. This is usually not the case.
    Yes, they all have some kind of problem. It might be due to circumstance, it might be physiological, or both. And anything can be a stressor. When you study further into abnormal psych, and I hope that you will, you will learn about something called the "diathesis-stress" model, meaning that people are predisposed to certain behaviors or disorders due to pre-existing conditions. It might be biological or neurological, or it might be environmental, or all of the above.
    I am not out to bust your chops here. I think it is great that you care about and investigate this problem. You may very well be on to a targeted method for helping certain groups of suicidal people. :smile:
     
  9. Feb 19, 2006 #8
    I don't believe focusing them on revenge would be terribly better, actually. They're already in the wrong frame of mind so turning them in the direction of another negative emotion would be rather risky. It wouldn't be taking their mind off of their suicidal emotions, it would be giving them something almost as bad to focus on which could, in the end, make them even worse. Focusing on bad emotions like those is hard on you, it would be best to try and talk them down from the edge and give them the help they need.:smile:
     
  10. Feb 22, 2006 #9
    Firstly I believe theoretically suicidal actions and vengance based actions are based off of completely different reference points and usually have different motivators; ie. which is better french fries or the color blue? There is a certain level of dimentional difference.
    Secondly, if an individual is in the mindset to kill themselves then I am under the asumption that in such situations one is not apt for either a long drawn out process, or if the advice towards vengance is taken that it would be to a higher power than is typically accepted by most countries laws. In the case of rape issues, clinically it is statistically more probable that if revenge is the general notion, and especially if one is also in the mindset of a suicidal individual, then homicide is the most commonly taken course of action, as it is just a transfer of finality.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2006
  11. Feb 22, 2006 #10

    arildno

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    It is by no means the case that those who are suicidal in general have been "abused" or tormented by others that might for that reason ne the proper object of vengeance.
    Neither, would I think, exacting vengeance on such individuals in any way make the suicidal person less suicidal.

    However it comes about, whether by external agency or internal, it is my belief that the vast majority of suicidals are in the iron grip of self-hatred long before they are so tortured by this INTERNAL demon that they want a release from it in the only conceivable way that is available to them (i.e, their own deaths).

    One of the nastiest sides of self-hatred is how self-fulfilling its prophecies are:
    You aren't worth anything, you won't ever be able to achieve anything, so there is really no point in trying..

    Normal persons naturally shy away from self-hating persons because they are frightened by, and repelled by the poison that is gnawing at the self-hating person's insides.
    The self-hater reeks of death and decay.

    If you are strong enough to bring succour and some light to these darkened, enchained souls, that is certainly admirable; but don't think that they'll ever free themselves from themselves merely by letting them lash out against anyone they fancy have wronged them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2006
  12. Feb 23, 2006 #11

    Mk

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    Maybe suicidal persons are suicidal for a reason. Maybe its their time. Did we ever think of that?
     
  13. Feb 23, 2006 #12

    arildno

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    They make it their time, anyhow. That is, perhaps, not very controversial..
     
  14. Feb 24, 2006 #13
    depends on if you belive in fate or not, if our lives are already pre-planned out by fate / destiny (call it what you want) then those people who are planned to commit suicide will do no matter what we try to stop them. if however we use the assumption that we actually have real choices in our lives then we may be able to stop people commiting suicide by using various different methods, i dont think focusing the energy on revenge is a good idea, as this could lead to un-forseen consequences which could make things worse for the person in question.

    and unfortunatly sometimes the person responsable for their depression is the person themself. How do you exact revenge on yourself?
     
  15. Feb 24, 2006 #14

    arildno

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    As I see it, self-hatred or self-loathing prepares an individual to exact the ultimate revenge upon himself: Namely to slide deep enough down to commit the act of suicide.

    (Note: I'm not talking about what we might call rational suicides, namely those motivated by, say, the wish to escape the indignities and agonies caused by some physical illness)
     
  16. Feb 24, 2006 #15
    which is why trying to focus this person onto revenge instead of suicide would not work for two reasons:

    1- the act of suicide is the revenge aspect.

    2- in order for revenge to be of any consequence you have to be able to appreciate the consequences of the revenge you have just inacted, this is not possiable in this situation as a dead person cannot appretiate the revenge they have just inacted upon themeselves.

    therefore suicide is not in fact revenge for a problem it is in fact the removal of the problems cause and therefore the removal of the problem itself.
     
  17. Feb 24, 2006 #16

    arildno

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    As I see it suicidals are experts at (self)-condemnation, but have next to no competence in repentance&forgiveness.
    Those are the personal qualities they need to get cultivated within themselves, IMO, rather than externalize their condemnation into a vengeful act.
     
  18. Feb 24, 2006 #17
    so instead of trying to focus the suicidal person onto vengence (for numerous reasons) we should try to focus them onto productive and benificial ways of getting over the reason for their suicidal feelings (whatever their cause). vengence benefits no-one in the long run.
     
  19. Feb 24, 2006 #18

    arildno

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    I agree, it doesn't.
    While I think that it is natural that anyone that has suffered some indignity at the hands of others (or that someone in one's kith&kin has suffered from it) will feel a need to heap onto the perp a number of vengeful acts, I do not think that giving in to those immediate emotions will cleanse one's mind&emotions in any constructive way. Rather, I think one will bind oneself even more strongly to the offense, in such a manner that one doesn't get free from it on a mental and emotional plane.
     
  20. Feb 24, 2006 #19
    which in the case of a suicidal person focusing on revenge, this act of revenge may cause them to then feel guilty or more emotionally attached to the problem then they were before which may then cause them to become more suicidal, its a downward spiral. therefore i think we can agree not to focus suicidal people on revenge, but we should find some other less harmfull and more beneficial focus for them.
     
  21. Feb 24, 2006 #20

    arildno

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    Precisely. They lack the ability to forgive themselves, and are more likely to condemn themselves for having been too harsh (or too mild!) against a perp, than relief over that the guy has gotten a "just" reward.
     
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