Suicide wrong?

  • Thread starter Mattius_
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  • #26
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pmb_phy said:
Some people who kill themselves are seriously sick, not stupid. In my opinion that is a misuse of the word "stupid". It really doesn't apply.
I agree with this.
 
  • #27
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What about the suicide issue in relation to reincarnation?

Does this affect reinacarnation negatively. Does it change the outcome at all?

For arguments sake, lets assume reincarnation can and does happen, on the premise that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change form.

Or another possibility.

Could someone's life purpose be to commit suicide. Perhaps in order for that soul to know what it is like to experience this pain/event.

Just trying to think outside the cube.
 
  • #28
pmb_phy said:
In what sense? Do you think happy people commit suicide? Do you think that some people kill themselves if they have bad day?

At least consider the possibility that they are in need of help, perhaps medical help. Some people who kill themselves are seriously sick, not stupid. In my opinion that is a misuse of the word "stupid". It really doesn't apply.

Pete
What I mean is, I think suicide is a stupid solution, and that trying everything one can to get help would be a better one. I am not saying that people who kill themselves are stupid. I you feel it was a bad word to use, or that I used it the wrong way, then I apologize. I meant no offence.
 
  • #29
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Grizzlycomet said:
What I mean is, I think suicide is a stupid solution, ...
Sorry but I don't know what that means in this context. To me that's almost like telling a man who is falling from 5,000 feet without a parachute that hitting the ground is a stupid solution to his current problem, i.e. stopping. I'm not refering to all suicides mind you. Just certain kinds. I.e. the kinds which are beyond rational control of the person, those which are a result from a sickness. There are, of course, people who off themselves when their boyfriend/gilrfriend dump them. That is truly a stupid solution and in this context I agree.
..and that trying everything one can to get help would be a better one.
That doesn't always work. A good buddy of mine tried many ways to get help and failed. It was the system which failed him since he did what one is supposed to do. Yet he was unable to get help. He later killed himself. It was a very sad and extremely frustrating situation. Especially since none of us had any clue that something was wrong. There were zero outward signs ... except perhaps that he would never get into a serious conversation without turning it into a joke. I kind of wondered if this was his way of hiding some sort of pain. At the time I just thought of him as a non-serious person. But do this date nobody knows why he did what he did.

Pete
 
  • #30
pmb_phy said:
Sorry but I don't know what that means in this context. To me that's almost like telling a man who is falling from 5,000 feet without a parachute that hitting the ground is a stupid solution to his current problem, i.e. stopping. I'm not refering to all suicides mind you. Just certain kinds. I.e. the kinds which are beyond rational control of the person, those which are a result from a sickness. There are, of course, people who off themselves when their boyfriend/gilrfriend dump them. That is truly a stupid solution and in this context I agree.
If we are talking about mental illness, or illness to the point where the person him/herself has no rational control, then of course, I agree, stupid is not the word.

pmb_phy said:
That doesn't always work. A good buddy of mine tried many ways to get help and failed. It was the system which failed him since he did what one is supposed to do. Yet he was unable to get help. He later killed himself. It was a very sad and extremely frustrating situation. Especially since none of us had any clue that something was wrong. There were zero outward signs ... except perhaps that he would never get into a serious conversation without turning it into a joke. I kind of wondered if this was his way of hiding some sort of pain. At the time I just thought of him as a non-serious person. But do this date nobody knows why he did what he did.

Pete
Sorry to hear you lost your friend.
I must say though, although I realise such matters are very, very difficult for the person to discuss, if he did not tell you he had problems, nor give any indication, then he really did not do everything he could to get help. Family and friends would have to have been a very good source for help and support.
 
  • #31
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Grizzlycomet said:
I must say though, although I realise such matters are very, very difficult for the person to discuss, if he did not tell you he had problems, nor give any indication, then he really did not do everything he could to get help. Family and friends would have to have been a very good source for help and support.
Easy to say, hard to do. He may have found it impossible to do so. In cases such as his its most likely not the kind of thing where friends can help. Serious cases of depression can't be solved by talking to your friends. It mayh have helped him in some small way but I doubt it would have been significant. Nobody can say and I'm not about to sit in judgement of something where I'm completely ignorant about the actual reason. But that's me.

There are other times I see suicide as a humane decision. There are some instances when a person is so ill that the most humane thing do to is to let the person die. For example, a person who has a horrible illness and is not responding to treatment may end up in a hospice. In cases such as this it would be humane to let the person commit suicide rather than suffer in the hospice waiting for death to come.

Pete
 
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  • #32
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It must be a very difficult thing to go through one's own, or another's, terminal disorder. I can think of little more that would be more distressing.
Though I must at some point die, I can only hope that it is sudden or without a great deal of pain and suffering. Regardless of the following comments, I cannot truly say how I might act or react under similar circumstance.
What I will offer is this: I believe there is a component to life apart from our day-to-day living. Call it spiritual, call it whatever.
My point offered is that if we "call" that moment(suicide), than do we not also refuse any available help? Once remanded to death, we remand ourselves to no "possible" recovery. I am against that because I believe in a spiritual component to life, including miracles, and to commit suicide tells me that one does not believe that.
But what do I know! If you are burning alive from some strange accident and you are totally alone with a loaded gun, would you direct it to your head and pull the trigger? Damn, I hope I am never in that circumstance.
 
  • #33
Kerrie
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i see suicide for people who are depressed, but otherwise set in life, as a selfish act-it is your responsibility to take charge of your happiness...that probably sounds harsh, but it is the truth...in the instance of someone sufferering from pain or terminal illness, i think it is more justifiable...
 
  • #34
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Sucide unless because of physical pain is stupid. People get too involved in emotions and stress. If you were to the point that you are willing to kill yourself, just say my current life is normal and do all the crazy wild stuff you would always want to do but never would because of public opinons. Go live in the forest by yourself if you want -- you ahve nothing to lose I almost see it as a huge oppurtunity to start over. Where else can u go but up/.
 
  • #35
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The conclusion others seem to be coming to here is suicide is okay if it is self-enacted euthanasia, a response to physical pain, but not as a response to emotional pain.

Why? Do we assume emotional pain to have little importance? I don't belive that is the attitude of the majority of posters - this ideal leads logically to the conclusion that rape should be punished according only to the physical injurys sustained.

When someone commits suicide, it is for one of two reasons:
1) death was not intentional; it was a cry for help
2) the suicidal decides that death would be better than life

Dismissing emotional pain as trivial or transient is therefore a mistake; the person in best place to judge considers it overwhelming, and who ever chooses such a final solution to a transient problem? Suicidals do not consider their problems transient. Please don't call these people or their decision 'stupid'. If it can be the right decision for one in physical pain, maybe it is sometimes the right decision for those in psychological pain.

As for those of you who don't consider a person's life their own property, to do with as they wish, I challenge you to justify this perspective without falling back on religious dogma or a functionalist societal view that disregards the wellbeing of human beings.

To conclude: Suicide is always an extreme choice, but not necessarily a 'stupid' one and certainly not morally 'wrong'
 
  • #36
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Mattius_ said:
I was just wondering, If a person who has great potential, and great ability to change the world for the better decides to commit suicide, is it wrong? Isn't it his decision to make? Should he have to kill himself with the guilt of 'what ifs' on his mind, or should he be able to kill himself not caring about the potential and ability's he had?

Does he have to feel guilty about leaving his family behind and causing grief and turmoil? Isnt it fair for him to end his own pain? Should he leave a suicide note telling his family he did this for himself, selfishly? or will that just create more grief, I dont know, was just a question I had on my mind.
If you are a 'UNIVERSALIST', yes, Suicide is wrong. You will find this ruling in Kant's 'CATEGORICAL IMPARATIVES', a fixed point on which his moral philosophy rests. In Kant's universalism, suicide is wrong because, according to him, when you do commit one, you rob the rest of the society of 'VALUE'! Another point: Lutwig Wittgenstein spent his entire life contemplating suicide.......but in the end (and very cleverly) he never did.

For me suicide is wrong for one fundamental reason:

In our unshakeable resolve and drive to survive, everyone counts, and since no one knows who holds the KEY to that survival, every necessary step or measure taken to preserve life must be ABSOLUTELY adhered to. In this very sense, I could very well pass as a universalist.

PROBLEM: Universalism, though originally necessary and wholly desirable, is incompatible with UTILITARIANISM. Under utilitarian code of conduct, one or a few may commit suicide to save many in a moral dilemma situation. In this very sense, you could quite rightly say or postulate that Universalism is naturally ill-equipped to deal with moral dilemmas that we all encounter in every moment of our lives. However, my own belief is that, even if this were really the case, it is ephemrally so, both in scope and in substance.....for in the end universalism will prevail.
 
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  • #37
Kerrie
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
827
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eringj said:
Why? Do we assume emotional pain to have little importance? I don't belive that is the attitude of the majority of posters - this ideal leads logically to the conclusion that rape should be punished according only to the physical injurys sustained.

When someone commits suicide, it is for one of two reasons:
1) death was not intentional; it was a cry for help
2) the suicidal decides that death would be better than life

Dismissing emotional pain as trivial or transient is therefore a mistake; the person in best place to judge considers it overwhelming, and who ever chooses such a final solution to a transient problem? Suicidals do not consider their problems transient. Please don't call these people or their decision 'stupid'. If it can be the right decision for one in physical pain, maybe it is sometimes the right decision for those in psychological pain.

As for those of you who don't consider a person's life their own property, to do with as they wish, I challenge you to justify this perspective without falling back on religious dogma or a functionalist societal view that disregards the wellbeing of human beings.

To conclude: Suicide is always an extreme choice, but not necessarily a 'stupid' one and certainly not morally 'wrong'
thank you for a fresh and more positive perspective...it made me rethink my stand on it...i still believe we are ultimately responsible for our emotional direction in life, but i have to agree after reading your words that suicide is an extreme call for help, not a stupid choice. your compassion for those suffering is to be commended... :smile:
 
  • #38
271
3
IMHO, except in the case of terminal illness and pain, suicide is a sad form of surrender. "I have so much to offer, but the world won't let me show it. So, i will quit and that will teach you." A grotesque expression of anger; turned inward.
Suicide isn't "surrendering" or taking the easy way out. I would hardly call killing yourself easy. In fact, in my opinion, it takes a lot of courage to commit suicide. Whether it be shooting yourself or jumping to your death.

I've seen someone attempt to commit suicide. He jumped off a pretty high cliff onto railroad tracks. I was sitting in my car enjoying the beautiful view, next to some other people in their cars when this man comes up...and just jumps. He was still alive though, when the ambulance got there.

If these people have the guts to jump to their death or to shoot themselves, they must have the courage to continue life.
 
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  • #39
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Isn't it a natural instinct for us to live? I think that suicide in most cases wrong and is part of some mental problem (other then depression) excluding people suffering of disease and such that are in never ending agony and are destined to die anyways.
 

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