Sunrise from West: The Possibility of a Planetary Shift

[Faizan]

Hello friends,
i recently read somewhere that one day the sun would rise from the west and this year the sun would rise in the west in mars. Also i read that the direction of where our planet would change. Is this really true, if so then how and when canthis take place?

 

[mathman]

Barring a catastrophe (impact by a large asteroid?), the Earth's rotation on its axis will not change direction, although it will gradually slow down over time. As for Mars, whatever it is will stay, unless hit by an extremely large object also.

 

[Faizan]

Orbit of earth

Thanks mr.mathman, but i meant to ask whether the Earth would change the direction of where it orbits around the sun or not and also can anyone tell me that which direction is Earth revolving around now. And the other question is that what is "retrograde motion"?

 

[enigma]

He answered your first question Faizan. The Earth will not change the direction it's rotating.

As for the direction, if you point your right thumb up, and imagine that is north, then your fingers curl in the direction of rotation and orbit. Retrograde motion is when an object orbits the other direction.

 

[Faizan]

Direction of orbit

So Can Earth ever travel in retrograde motion, if so then when can this happen.

 

[enigma]

Because of conservation of angular momentum, the Earth (and everything else) will continue to travel in the direction it is rotating unless acting on by an outside force.

Think about a spinning ice-skater. She will keep spinning in one direction, and keep spinning in that direction, and keep spinning in that direction. The only things which will slow her down are friction with the ice against her skates or when she opens her arms out and redirects herself.

The same thing is happening with the Earth except there is no ice, and there are no arms. There are a few things which are slowing down the rotation of the Earth. Gravitational interactions with the Moon and the Sun are slowing it down ever so slightly. The Sun will die out long before we slow down enough that we're not rotating relative to it (like the Moon is to us). That means that the only thing which could cause us to go retrograde (as mathman said) would be a huge (and I mean huge... as big as Mars at least) asteroid impacting us in the correct position and direction to blow off our angular momentum.

To visualise this, think of the skater again. To slow her spin down (and hurt her, I'm sure) you put a big block off to the side. She spins into it, and it stops the spin (and she gets a huge bruise probably)

 

[Faizan]

Retrograde Motion

Does this mean that the Earth cannot orbit retrogradely, sooner or later?

 

[AKG]

enigma

What about the effect or precession?

 

[enigma]

Faizan, no. The Earth cannot orbit in a retrograde direction.

AKG, precession doesn't change the spin direction. It just changes the 'north' direction. Think of a top. The top always spins in the same direction. The north direction just wobbles.

 

[ceptimus]

Concorde passengers, on certain flights could watch the sun rise in the west. This was due to Concorde's westward speed being higher than the eastward speed of the land due to the Earth's rotation.

Now that Concorde doesn't fly anymore, only military jet pilots probably get to see this effect.

 

[russ_watters]

Fazian, I think you might be mistaking the retrograde motion of Mars across our sky for an actual change in the direction of its orbit. The retrograde motion of Mars across our sky is a quirk of geometry - the actual orbit of Mars is stable.

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/allabout/nightsky/nightsky04.html

 

[Njorl]

The magnetic poles might flip. In that case, they will either have to reprint all of the magnetic compasses, or just decide that the Atlantic Ocean is the west coast of the US. In the latter case, the sun will rise where it always did, but it will be called west.

 

[Integral]

The magnetic poles might flip. In that case, they will either have to reprint all of the magnetic compasses, or just decide that the Atlantic Ocean is the west coast of the US. In the latter case, the sun will rise where it always did, but it will be called west.

That would be rude! To wake up one morning to find that I am now on the East coast! Do you suppose the weather would follow?

 

[Njorl]

That would be rude! To wake up one morning to find that I am now on the East coast! Do you suppose the weather would follow?

Not the weather, but the attitudes will change. You will become a rude and dour workaholic, while I will wear "JAMS" and ride a boogie board to work.

Njorl

 

[Andre]

Now, let's have a look at the complete system. The sun rises in the west at Venus, for a day length of about 60 Earth days.

The solar system is supposed to be chaotic. With resonance acting between precession of planets, their obliquity and the eccentricity all interacting. When the freqencies get within resonance ranges extreme things happen to the orbit and spinning axis. Due to these effects Venus may have toppled in the past, causing it's retrograde spinning.

Due to the moon gravtiy, the precession of the equinoxes (26,000 years) is much faster than the obliquity cycle (41,000 years). But as the moon recedes and the Earth spinning slowly decays, decreasing the equatorial bulge, the precession slows down and within a few billion years it will be in resonance with the obliquity cycle. Who is alive then, will be able to note if that it could tilt the Earth axis upside down. It will not be funny to live then.

The big guru on these matters is Prof Laskar in Paris.

 

[Cecil]

The magnetic poles might flip. In that case, they will either have to reprint all of the magnetic compasses, or just decide that the Atlantic Ocean is the west coast of the US. In the latter case, the sun will rise where it always did, but it will be called west.

***Pedantic mode on***

The geographic north pole of a planet is defined such that the planet rotates west to east. Magnetic north may - and will - shift sooner or later, but the Atlantic Ocean will always be off the east coast.

 

[Nasirz]

hello faizan
sunrise from the west

Now I express some of the encyclopedic facts about the rotation and magnetic field of the Earth to judge the possibility of the rising of the sun from the west.
(1) Talking about the motion of the Earth and the attraction of the other planets over it, the Chamber's Encyclopedia says, " In reality however the attraction of the other planets cause the whole orbit to rotate round the sun and to undergo slow changes in shape and size...that is the orbit fluctuates in shape and size."
(2) The Encyclopedia of Science and Technology says, "Never it is well established that the Earth's magnetic field does originate predominantly in the deep interior.
(3) Now it is well known that, "The Earth's magnetic field is gradually changing with time in its intensity as well as in its distribution pattern."
(4) The fraction of the Earth's magnetic field produced by outside sources is now understood to be an important representation of the electro magnetic activities in the Earth's upper atmosphere.
(5) The moons gravitational forces also gives rise to a tidal current in the ionosphere, just as it does in the ocean water consequently a lunar ionosphere dynamo also exists.
(6) Near the Earth the magnetic field is compressed and neutralized in an outward direction, and thus the magnetic filed is confined within a limited space surrounding the Earth. This limited space and its outer boundary are called the magnetosphere and the magnetopause of the Earth.
(7) It was believed that the outer space beyond the Earth's atmosphere is a perfect vacuum but it is established that the solar corona extends beyond the Earth's orbit, the space between the Sun and the Earth is filled with plasma gas called the solar wind. During a period of low solar activity (quiet sun), the solar wind flows radically outward from the Sun at the speeds 186-311 miles per second. Electrons and positive ions in the solar wind when approach the Earth, are repelled by the magnetic field of the Earth, yet they reach a region where the kinetic pressure of the solar wind and the pressure of the Earth's magnetic field are in equilibrium.

 

[Phobos]

You will become a rude and dour workaholic,

hey, who you callin' a workaholic?

east-coast-Phobos

 

[Kerrie]

isn't retrograde an optical illusion of another celestial body passing behind the sun from Earth's point of view?

 

[selfAdjoint]

isn't retrograde an optical illusion of another celestial body passing behind the sun from Earth's point of view?

That's a little backward. Apparent retrograde motion occurs for outer planets, Mars Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, when the faster moving Earth on the "inner track" of its orbit, overtakes and passes them. This makes them appear to move backwards against the backdrop of fixed stars.

 

[naz]

I just received an email form a friend regarding the Retrograde Motion of Mars, and the email said that scientists reckon that all the planets of our solar system will go through this once on there life.

 

[naz]

Did you guys know that the prophet of the religion of Islam, prophesiced that the Sen will rise from the West, and that is a a major sign of the coming of the day of judgement.

 

[naz]

Sorry, i didnt make that clear, this prophet claimed that the sun will rise from the west on earth

 

[enigma]

That's nice. I won't hold my breath...

 

[Andre]

Well, if Earth spinning axis topples over to get the sun rising from the west, it certainly would be a judgement day.

BTW. In our Solar system, the normal spinning direction is counterclockwise, both for orbits and individual spinning, these motions are called "direct" or "prograde."

Of course the spin direction is in relation to the observer. If you topple a spinning object in relation to a fixed observer, it's spin apparently reverses into the other direction.

. Clockwise rotation is called retrograde and is exceptional. Some small moons orbit clockwise around their planet. Venus and Uranus spin clockwise or retrograde in the absolute sense for a independant observer. But the tilt or obliquity is quite different. Uranus tilt is almost 90 degrees and it may well be in a chaotic resonance state. A few degrees difference though the 90 degrees and the spin direction apparently reverses. Venus tilt is near upright and it has an absolute retrograde spinning speed of 243 days while it rotates the sun every 224 days. There are a view ideas about how this could have happened. Venus may have toppled or may have been born retrograde or gravity interaction of its atmosphere with the sun may have induced a slow reversal from a slight prograde spinning to the present retrograde spinning.

 

[fadhix]

hmmm... ok...when do u foresee this happening?

 

[tony873004]

I just received an email form a friend regarding the Retrograde Motion of Mars, and the email said that scientists reckon that all the planets of our solar system will go through this once on there life.

Rekon is kind of the wrong word, as Rekon implies "guesses" or "theorizes". Scientists already know exactly what will happen. All the planets exterior to Earth go through this once per orbit. The closer the planet is to Earth, the more the appearant retrograde motion. Earth and Venus do this too, as viewed from Mercury. But it's just a viewing angle thing. The planets don't actually move backwards.

 

[Andre]

I guess we mix things up here, retrograde spinning as in Venus and apparent retrogade orbit motion caused by the complex relation of an observer and object both being in different orbits.

when do u foresee this happening?

As long as the Earth hangs on to the moon a violent chaotic resonance zone will most likely not happen. But the moon is receding due to a complex -tidal- mechanism driven by cionservation of momentum. Eventually it will be pulled away due to the gravity of the sun. The astronomers should be able to tell when this is due. A few billion years I would estimate.

 

[tony873004]

...Eventually it will be pulled away due to the gravity of the sun. The astronomers should be able to tell when this is due. A few billion years I would estimate.

The Moon receeding slows the rotation of the Earth, which slows the rate of receeding of the Moon. Once the Moon has slowed the Earth's rotation so it equals the orbital period of the Moon, both Earth and Moon will be tidally locked, and the Moon will stop receeding. This will happen before the Moon's distance exceeds the radius of Earth's Hill Sphere (but probably after the Sun goes Red Giant and engulfs the Earth and Moon). So the Sun will never strip the Moon from the Earth's orbit. I forget where I read this, but I think the Earth / Moon orbital period would become something like 50 days, which would give us here on Earth 25 days of light and 25 days of dark each "new day"

On an unrelated note, if the Moon did get stripped from the Earth, it would become another planet orbiting in an Earth-crossing orbit. It would eventually collide with the Earth.

 

[Kerrie]

That's a little backward. Apparent retrograde motion occurs for outer planets, Mars Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, when the faster moving Earth on the "inner track" of its orbit, overtakes and passes them. This makes them appear to move backwards against the backdrop of fixed stars.

mercury and venus also appear moving backwards when moving in front of the sun don't they?

 

[selfAdjoint]

No because they move so much faster than the Earth in its orbit. Now on the backside of the Sun, when they are moving in the opposite direction to the Earth, they would appear to be moving backward, but at those times they are invisible to the naked eye.

 

[nrqed]

No because they move so much faster than the Earth in its orbit. Now on the backside of the Sun, when they are moving in the opposite direction to the Earth, they would appear to be moving backward, but at those times they are invisible to the naked eye.

Are you sure of this? Venus has such a small apparent magnitude (i.e. it is so bright) and a fairly large maximum elongation (about 46 degrees) that I am almost certain that retrograde motion of Venus can indeed be observed with the naked eye.

Notwithstanding the issue of naked eye vs telescopic observations, it is still a fact that *all* the planets (inferior and superior) exhibit retrograde motion.


Coming back to the original poster, maybe a source of confusion is that books often talk about the motion of the sun from west to east when talking the motion *relative to a fixed background of stars*.

(Now I am addressing anyone who is interested, not necessarily selfAdjoint who probably knows all that).

The idea is that the Sun and the planets (and the stars) and everything rise in the East and set in the West over one day, but the Sun and stars don't quite move at the same rythm. The Sun takes 24 hr to get back (roughly) to its initial position whereas the stars take a bit less (about 23h56m). This is simply due to the revolution of the Earth around the Sun. Anyway, people then say that the Sun therefore moves *eastward* relative to *a fixed background of stars*. This means that if you plot the position of the Sun along the zodiac signs, you will see it moving eastward, accomplishing a full circle in one year. The planets do the same thing except that they sometimes revert directions, hence retrograde motion.

I just hope this might be a bit helpful.

Pat

 

[K.J.Healey]

Just a quick question. Does the sun rotate about its center? Relative to a distant observer of course, say another star.

 

[tony873004]

Just a quick question. Does the sun rotate about its center? Relative to a distant observer of course, say another star.

Yes, the Sun takes about 25 days to rotate once around its axis, relative to the background stars. It's still a mystery as to why the Sun rotates so slowly.