DIY Swirl Push Maker - 50% Success! Help Needed!

[junasiv]

TL;DR Summary

I am trying to a DIY project to make a food maker. I am 50% succeeded with that and need help for the remaining 50%.
The idea is to produce the output shown in the first image. That food is made with a flour. So I have the setup a pressing machine shown in image2.

Hi Everyone!
I am trying to a DIY project to make a food maker. I am 50% succeeded with that and need help for the remaining 50%.
The idea is to produce the output shown in the first image. That food is made with a flour. So I have the setup a pressing machine shown in image2. In this I was able to use pressing motors and made the flour paste come out with the size I wanted. Now the challenge is to make that flour paste swirl. I can't make the presser move in circular motion. It is fixed. So I have to find an option to make something down which rotates and makes the swirl. How do I design that please? Also another challenge is the presser will produce the flour paste quickly. So is there a way to make a path which kind of makes a swirl. Right now it comes out like in tooth paste but it doesn't gets into pieces. It comes continuously. Your suggestions are highly appreciated..! I am not from a mechanical background so, please excuse for my explanation in a lame way.
Thanks in advance.

 

[jrmichler]

Sounds like a fun project. Here is one idea:

Start with a turning table, similar to a small potter's wheel or vinyl record turntable. Mount the presser over the center of the turning table, then move either the table or the pressure to one side at a steady speed.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

Let's take jrmichler's idea one step farther. Make a Lazy Susan table, with 6 or 8 rotating platters or plates, below the extruder. as the dough comes out move the plate around and side ways just enough to make the spiral. When one is made, move the table around to the next position to start the next spiral. The one made prior, could be off-loaded now or it can stay on the table and cook, while more are being extruded into the plates spaced around the table's perimeter. If you make the table large enough you could get 6 or 8 rotating plates on the perimeter before they got back around to the starting position. Each could be off-loaded just before reaching this point. If they are to be deep fried, the Lazy Susan could be replaced with a large pot of hot oil with a rotating plate at position number one, that can be lowered into the hot oil, to off-load the extruded spiral, ready for the next extrusion cycle. Each spiral would float around the hot oil pot being pushed by the ones that follow. Off-loading could be done using a short chain type conveyor belt that dips into the oil to pick up the finished/cooked spirals from the hot oil.

 

[junasiv]

Sounds like a fun project. Here is one idea:

Start with a turning table, similar to a small potter's wheel or vinyl record turntable. Mount the presser over the center of the turning table, then move either the table or the pressure to one side at a steady speed.

Hi Jrmichler,
Thank you very much for your suggestion I will try that. I can make the turn table but need to find a way to move the turn table a side.

 

[junasiv]

Let's take jrmichler's idea one step farther. Make a Lazy Susan table, with 6 or 8 rotating platters or plates, below the extruder. as the dough comes out move the plate around and side ways just enough to make the spiral. When one is made, move the table around to the next position to start the next spiral. The one made prior, could be off-loaded now or it can stay on the table and cook, while more are being extruded into the plates spaced around the table's perimeter. If you make the table large enough you could get 6 or 8 rotating plates on the perimeter before they got back around to the starting position. Each could be off-loaded just before reaching this point. If they are to be deep fried, the Lazy Susan could be replaced with a large pot of hot oil with a rotating plate at position number one, that can be lowered into the hot oil, to off-load the extruded spiral, ready for the next extrusion cycle. Each spiral would float around the hot oil pot being pushed by the ones that follow. Off-loading could be done using a short chain type conveyor belt that dips into the oil to pick up the finished/cooked spirals from the hot oil.

Hi Azfireball,
Thanks for the next steps of ideas. I will try taking that rotating table. I hope that we can make that spiral perfect by adjusting the speed of this rotating table. I cannot control the Dow speed since it is fixed speed.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

Can you let us see drawings or pictures of what you are working on or plan to make? Are you baking these or deep frying them?

 

[junasiv]

Hi Azfireball,
I am deep frying this in oil. Also at a time, 5 can be fried.
About the drawings and pictures,
I am thinking of creating the turntable/lazysusan table using, stepper motor, so that I can control the speed and move. Also saw this on ebay which kind of does the same but doesn't move : https://www.ebay.com/p/Adjustable-B...d-Turntable/4021647140?_trksid=p2047675.l2644
For pressing the dough, I am using the 12v Actuator. It is supported with wood pieces. I have attached the sketch. I will take some pix attach once I go home.
How do I move the turntable/lazysusan table towards to make the swirl. Can you please suggest an idea for this? I am checking some 3d printer moving parts. Thanks.

 

[jrmichler]

Make a simple slide. Mount the turntable on a board. The base would be another board with a pair of square sticks glued on. The turntable base board would fit between the sticks and would be free to slide back and forth.

The back and forth motion would be from a stepper motor directly connected to a piece of threaded rod. A nut would be attached to the turntable base board. The stepper motor turns the screw, the screw moves the nut, and the turntable moves. Your local hardware store has threaded rods and nuts.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

Here is what I see:

I think you will need a screen carrier to transfer the extruded spiral from the injection station to the hot oil pot. These can be the same size as the spirals and placed 5 at a time on a larger screen(with handles) that just fits into your hot oil pot. The process would be...place a carrier on the center of the Lazy Susan (LS) table. Start extruding the dough from the center outward by moving the handle to the side as the batter flows out, and the LS is rotated around by the motor. Pick up the screen-carrier (containing the formed spiral) and place it on a larger screen that fits your pot. After 5 spirals are completed and placed around the large screen, move the large screen to the hot oil. Repeat.

The LS is driven by friction with a rubber disk that is attached to the motor shaft. Adjust the LS rotation speed by changing the dia. of the rubber disk, until it is right for the batter flow rate. Or, use a variable speed motor. Spring load the motor to drive the LS.
BTW- How are you going to stop the batter flow when required to do so?
I think you need one of these mounted on a metal or plywood base:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Xlazy.TRS0&_nkw=lazy+susan+turntable&_sacat=0

 

[junasiv]

Sounds like a fun project. Here is one idea:

Start with a turning table, similar to a small potter's wheel or vinyl record turntable. Mount the presser over the center of the turning table, then move either the table or the pressure to one side at a steady speed.

Make a simple slide. Mount the turntable on a board. The base would be another board with a pair of square sticks glued on. The turntable base board would fit between the sticks and would be free to slide back and forth.

The back and forth motion would be from a stepper motor directly connected to a piece of threaded rod. A nut would be attached to the turntable base board. The stepper motor turns the screw, the screw moves the nut, and the turntable moves. Your local hardware store has threaded rods and nuts.

Hi Jrmichler,
Thank you!. I did some search on the idea and the keywords you mentioned, This is what I came across : https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=threaded+rod+linear+motion. "Also the Lead Screw". Is that what you are referring to please?

 

[junasiv]

Here is what I see:
View attachment 245297
I think you will need a screen carrier to transfer the extruded spiral from the injection station to the hot oil pot. These can be the same size as the spirals and placed 5 at a time on a larger screen(with handles) that just fits into your hot oil pot. The process would be...place a carrier on the center of the Lazy Susan (LS) table. Start extruding the dough from the center outward by moving the handle to the side as the batter flows out, and the LS is rotated around by the motor. Pick up the screen-carrier (containing the formed spiral) and place it on a larger screen that fits your pot. After 5 spirals are completed and placed around the large screen, move the large screen to the hot oil. Repeat.

The LS is driven by friction with a rubber disk that is attached to the motor shaft. Adjust the LS rotation speed by changing the dia. of the rubber disk, until it is right for the batter flow rate. Or, use a variable speed motor. Spring load the motor to drive the LS.
BTW- How are you going to stop the batter flow when required to do so?
I think you need one of these mounted on a metal or plywood base:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Xlazy.TRS0&_nkw=lazy+susan+turntable&_sacat=0

Wow! AZFIREBALL, thank you very much. Could you please explain this part :
"Start extruding the dough from the center outward by moving the handle to the side as the batter flows out"

The motor is fixed in the center of the screen carrier or by the side? I thought you have it in the side because to make the spiral? If it is in the center how does it make the spiral please. Also I have attached picture of the cylinder where I put the dough. (Still I didn't fix the bottom section) The flour paste (small dough) comes from that hole. In my previous picture the squiggly line is the paste (small dough) that comes out. In this case do I need to make that into another pipe?.

I have mounted this in plywood base. Stopping is done manually as someone will be always checking the output of the spiral. I will put a push switch.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

A spiral is formed by two simultaneous motions. A rotational motion and a linear motion.

If you start, with a marker, in the center of a rotating piece of paper and move the paper to the right (under the marker) WHILE it is spinning around this center...you will draw a spiral. The relationship of the amount of rotation to linear side motion, determines the configuration of the spiral. It can be tight or loose. If you move the paper sideways faster for each revolution...you get a large, widely spaced spiral. If you move the paper sideways less for each revolution of the paper...you get a very tight spiral. To get a feel for this action, take a flat dinner plate; dust it with a layer of flour. Place your finger down right in the center. Now rotate the plate and move it sideways at the same time. Don't move your finger at the center location (that is the injector)
You should get a spiraled line in the flour.

All the extruder has to do is squirt the right amount of batter (dough) down on the rotating table, while you move it to the side. Move it left or right...it does not matter.

My feeling is you need to direct the outlet of the batter to the center of rotation via a tube so you can clearly observe the formation of the spiral without obstruction. So you will know when it is complete; and when it is time to stop the flow of the batter and terminate the spiral.

Make the end of the tube such that will allow you to change the nozzle on the end for size and configuration if desired.

In my drawing, the motor drive is at the outer edge of the LS...not the screen carrier. The screen carrier just sets on top of the LS table to allow you to form the spiral on it and move the finished spiral from the injection station to the hot oil. The rubber disk on the end of the motor shaft is pressed against the outer rim of the LS table; making it rotate via friction. Or a rubber band could be used to run around the LS table and then around the motor shaft.

Also, if the LS is heavy enough, you can spin it by hand, hard enough to make 4 or 5 revolutions, using its own momentum. No motor needed! In fact I think you would have more control, if you operated the batter injector by hand as well. This way you could turn it off and on, very fast, as needed. Your left hand operating the batter injector and your right hand operating the LS.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

If you would like to automate the side-ways movement of the rotating table, it will be more work but, here is how to do it:

Do not use a Lazy Susan (LS) table. Replace it with a table mounted on the end of a pipe (shaft). This pipe is attached underneath and on the table’s center point. From the side it will look like a ‘T’; with the table horizontal, across the top, and the shaft sticking down vertically. Now mount this assembly into the movable support arm, in place of the LS. (see previous sketch).The vertical shaft should be set in a sleeve at the end of the movable support arm with the proper fit to allow it to rotate freely. Place the motor so it is attached to this support arm and rotates the table as per the previous sketch using the rubber driving arrangement.
Now the fiddly part. On the bottom side of the rotating table, you will need to fashion a ‘cam’, of sorts that moves the table sideways, in synchronization with its rotation. (This ‘cam’ arrangement could be placed , on top, around the outer edge of the rotating table, if you like.)

What I am talking about here is a fixed pin or paw riding in a groove that forces the rotating table to move sideways the right amount, for each revolution of the table, to make the proper spiral. This pin or paw must not be attached to the same support arm that holds the movable rotating table. It must be attached to the main support shaft or to the structure positioning and holding the nozzle in place.

The configuration of the groove can be calculated by knowing the diameter of each line of batter and the number of turns desired in each spiral. As an example: If the cross sectional diameter of the line of batter is 1/2 inch...then the table must move sideways 1/2 inch for each revolution of the table to place the next line of batter right next to the previous one. If you want 5 complete circles of batter to make up the spiral...then you will need 5 complete circles of groove to do the job. Of course the groove will need to be a spiral as well. You will also need a way to disengage the cam paw from the groove, so you can place it, and the rotating table, back at the starting position (centered under the nozzle) after each spiral is completed.

Just a thought.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

This might work.(?)

 

[AZFIREBALL]

How about this?

 

[JBA]

For the above to work the turntable should be driven by the cam wheel so that the time for each rotation matches with the fixed dough feed rate.

 

[JBA]

Addendum to the above:
. . . with the feed nozzle mounted in line between the table center and the cam wheel. I would also recommend that the table be mounted on wheels and guide slots to so that it translates in a straight line to maintain that nozzle alignment.

 

[junasiv]

If you would like to automate the side-ways movement of the rotating table, it will be more work but, here is how to do it:

Do not use a Lazy Susan (LS) table. Replace it with a table mounted on the end of a pipe (shaft). This pipe is attached underneath and on the table’s center point. From the side it will look like a ‘T’; with the table horizontal, across the top, and the shaft sticking down vertically. Now mount this assembly into the movable support arm, in place of the LS. (see previous sketch).The vertical shaft should be set in a sleeve at the end of the movable support arm with the proper fit to allow it to rotate freely. Place the motor so it is attached to this support arm and rotates the table as per the previous sketch using the rubber driving arrangement.
Now the fiddly part. On the bottom side of the rotating table, you will need to fashion a ‘cam’, of sorts that moves the table sideways, in synchronization with its rotation. (This ‘cam’ arrangement could be placed , on top, around the outer edge of the rotating table, if you like.)

What I am talking about here is a fixed pin or paw riding in a groove that forces the rotating table to move sideways the right amount, for each revolution of the table, to make the proper spiral. This pin or paw must not be attached to the same support arm that holds the movable rotating table. It must be attached to the main support shaft or to the structure positioning and holding the nozzle in place.

The configuration of the groove can be calculated by knowing the diameter of each line of batter and the number of turns desired in each spiral. As an example: If the cross sectional diameter of the line of batter is 1/2 inch...then the table must move sideways 1/2 inch for each revolution of the table to place the next line of batter right next to the previous one. If you want 5 complete circles of batter to make up the spiral...then you will need 5 complete circles of groove to do the job. Of course the groove will need to be a spiral as well. You will also need a way to disengage the cam paw from the groove, so you can place it, and the rotating table, back at the starting position (centered under the nozzle) after each spiral is completed.

Just a thought.

Hi AZFIREBALL,
Thanks a lot for the wonderful ideas and diagrams. I am trying to catch up on the concepts. Also learning the new terminologies. Looks like I can try the tube table approach. The dough is somewhat delicate when it comes out thin. I hope it will not break into parts when it goes thorough the tube and then the move.

 

[junasiv]

A spiral is formed by two simultaneous motions. A rotational motion and a linear motion.

If you start, with a marker, in the center of a rotating piece of paper and move the paper to the right (under the marker) WHILE it is spinning around this center...you will draw a spiral. The relationship of the amount of rotation to linear side motion, determines the configuration of the spiral. It can be tight or loose. If you move the paper sideways faster for each revolution...you get a large, widely spaced spiral. If you move the paper sideways less for each revolution of the paper...you get a very tight spiral. To get a feel for this action, take a flat dinner plate; dust it with a layer of flour. Place your finger down right in the center. Now rotate the plate and move it sideways at the same time. Don't move your finger at the center location (that is the injector)
You should get a spiraled line in the flour.

All the extruder has to do is squirt the right amount of batter (dough) down on the rotating table, while you move it to the side. Move it left or right...it does not matter.

My feeling is you need to direct the outlet of the batter to the center of rotation via a tube so you can clearly observe the formation of the spiral without obstruction. So you will know when it is complete; and when it is time to stop the flow of the batter and terminate the spiral.

Make the end of the tube such that will allow you to change the nozzle on the end for size and configuration if desired.

In my drawing, the motor drive is at the outer edge of the LS...not the screen carrier. The screen carrier just sets on top of the LS table to allow you to form the spiral on it and move the finished spiral from the injection station to the hot oil. The rubber disk on the end of the motor shaft is pressed against the outer rim of the LS table; making it rotate via friction. Or a rubber band could be used to run around the LS table and then around the motor shaft.

Also, if the LS is heavy enough, you can spin it by hand, hard enough to make 4 or 5 revolutions, using its own momentum. No motor needed! In fact I think you would have more control, if you operated the batter injector by hand as well. This way you could turn it off and on, very fast, as needed. Your left hand operating the batter injector and your right hand operating the LS.
View attachment 245305View attachment 245305

Hi AZFIREBALL,
Yes, I was able to see that spiral coming. What is the name of this filler/pusher that you have attached please.
Thanks.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

For the above to work the turntable should be driven by the cam wheel so that the time for each rotation matches with the fixed dough feed rate.

Not true. The table is driven by the the attached motor and its friction drive. The cam arrangement is there only to translate the table sideways. Is does not need to move in a rectilinear fashion. It will work just as well moving in an arc around the attach point of the movable support arm. By this method the translation is matched directly to the revolution of the table. It is true that flow rate will need to be controlled as well.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

Hi AZFIREBALL,
Thanks a lot for the wonderful ideas and diagrams. I am trying to catch up on the concepts. Also learning the new terminologies. Looks like I can try the tube table approach. The dough is somewhat delicate when it comes out thin. I hope it will not break into parts when it goes thorough the tube and then the move.

Is the batter stiff enough not to flow by gravity? If it is very stiff, the supply container can be placed overhead. If it flows, due to gravity, it will need to be at table level or below and allow the pressure to move it through the tube, and out the nozzle. I would think it needs to be stiff so it does not flatten out too much on the table after being extruded and prior to being fried.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

Hi AZFIREBALL,
Yes, I was able to see that spiral coming. What is the name of this filler/pusher that you have attached please.
Thanks.

The device in the picture is a pastry filler; used by all pastry shops. You could build one a lot cheaper than buying one. It is just a large container with a plunger in the bottom, activated by hand (provides lot more control).

 

[AZFIREBALL]

junasiv: What country are you in? You might be able to visit a pastry shop and see the filler in action. I used one for years...they work great!

 

[JBA]

If dough feed rate is fixed in in/min then the cam wheel can match that speed regardless of the circumferential length of the orbit and that is what is required and each rotation has a different circumferential length which means the that as the circles increase in diameter the rpm must be reduced accordingly to maintain the same in/min orbital speed. If you stop and think about this for a minute I am confident you will see this is true.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

If dough feed rate is fixed in in/min then the cam wheel can match that speed regardless of the circumferential length of the orbit and that is what is required and each rotation has a different circumferential length which means the that as the circles increase in diameter the rpm must be reduced accordingly to maintain the same in/min orbital speed. If you stop and think about this for a minute I am confident you will see this is true.

If this is found to be a problem, the flow rate can be increased (hand operated) or a motor speed control will be required to change the rotational rate of the table during formation of the spiral. It would be nice to have the cam geared to the table but, it would be much more expensive to do it that way.

 

[JBA]

If the rotational resistance is low then a rubber wheel might work as well.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

If the rotational resistance is low then a rubber wheel might work as well.

A rubber friction drive was the suggestion I made in the earlier posts. The rotation resistance is very low since the table is just attached to a shaft that is in a sleeve in the support arm.

Oh I see. You mean as a cam wheel ...that might work but it will not give positive displacement. That might be a good refinement to look at however.

 

[JBA]

I am well aware of all of your efforts on this project. I have been following this thread for some time and watching the ideas build and develop and in watching the motor driven turntable and translation travel develop there was just this little bug in the back of my mind that something basic was not being discussed; and, when I returned to the thread earlier today, I finally I realized what that something was.
If necessary to insure the grip of a rubber wheel the a yoke with the driving wheel on the bottom of the rotating table and a an idler wheel above it on the top of the table might be used.
I am concerned that adding the necessary programmed motor systems to do what this simple system can do will much more complicated to develop and more expensive as well.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

I am well aware of all of your efforts on this project. I have been following this thread for some time and watching the ideas build and develop and in watching the motor driven turntable and translation travel develop there was just this little bug in the back of my mind that something basic was not being discussed; and, when I returned to the thread earlier today, I finally I realized what that something was.
If necessary to insure the grip of a rubber wheel the a yoke with the driving wheel on the bottom of the rotating table and a an idler wheel above it on the top of the table might be used.
I am concerned that adding the necessary programmed motor systems to do what this simple system can do will much more complicated to develop and more expensive as well.

True. If the rubber cam wheel will drive the table...that is the way to go. A counter wheel on top or the other side (underside) might help the friction between the cam wheel and the tube. Very soft (sticky) rubber might help as well. The top and bottom wheels could form a pinching action on the table that will insure a good steady drive force.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

junasiv: Can you tell us how automated you would like the operation to be. Will someone be operating and monitoring this system at all times while in use? How many hours per day do you expect the system will be in operation? Do you have any special operational or regulatory requirements. How about cleaning requirements? Any material restrictions or code requirements?

 

[NTL2009]

I'm seeing this get more and more complicated. I agree that either the feed rate or the RPM of the disc would need to change as the spiral grows (remember our old records - the speed of the stylus through the final was much greater at the outside edge of the record than those inner groves). This is basic trigonometry.

At this point, I think it would be far simpler, and far more flexible to build/buy an x-y table. That could be programmed to adjust the speed to match the (presumed) constant feed rate, and could be easily reprogrammed for different shapes and sizes. And if you change dough recipes, or anything else in the feeder, you could adjust the programming of the x-y table to match. You won't be constricted by purpose-built hardware. The dough might even change batch-batch or with temperature, you could have a program ask for a feed rate.

This looks pretty cool, I really think that once you get it working, you will want to make different shapes/sizes. Keep us up to date on your progress! I'm getting tempted to make one myself now.

 

[NTL2009]

I'm also curious about the "12V actuator" for the dough. Is this a solenoid providing pressure, or a positive displacement type device? I really think you want something that provides a positive displacement, so you drive a set volume of dough per unit time. A motor/stepper-motor and threaded rod or lead screw would do it.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

I'm seeing this get more and more complicated. I agree that either the feed rate or the RPM of the disc would need to change as the spiral grows (remember our old records - the speed of the stylus through the final was much greater at the outside edge of the record than those inner groves). This is basic trigonometry.

At this point, I think it would be far simpler, and far more flexible to build/buy an x-y table. That could be programmed to adjust the speed to match the (presumed) constant feed rate, and could be easily reprogrammed for different shapes and sizes. And if you change dough recipes, or anything else in the feeder, you could adjust the programming of the x-y table to match. You won't be constricted by purpose-built hardware. The dough might even change batch-batch or with temperature, you could have a program ask for a feed rate.

This looks pretty cool, I really think that once you get it working, you will want to make different shapes/sizes. Keep us up to date on your progress! I'm getting tempted to make one myself now.

That would be ideal but, I don’t think the OP has the where-with-all to pull that off. Right now he is somewhat MIA.

 

[AZFIREBALL]

I'm also curious about the "12V actuator" for the dough. Is this a solenoid providing pressure, or a positive displacement type device? I really think you want something that provides a positive displacement, so you drive a set volume of dough per unit time. A motor/stepper-motor and threaded rod or lead screw would do it.

The OP has not provided any details on this, other than his image above.

 

[junasiv]

junasiv: What country are you in? You might be able to visit a pastry shop and see the filler in action. I used one for years...they work great!

Hi AZFIREBALL,
I will check some store. I am from Sri Lanka.