Syphoning Effect: Is It Possible?

[antekatavic]

is the falling water (from the and of a pipe that is going 1km down) creating under presure?
is that underpresure the reason that you can transport water from the sea to the hole?
only the problem is that the enterence to the hole must not be 10 m above sea level

 

[JaredJames]

is the falling water (from the and of a pipe that is going 1km down) creating under presure?
is that underpresure the reason that you can transport water from the sea to the hole?
only the problem is that the enterence to the hole must not be 10 m above sea level

You also need to factor in other things such as resistance losses within the pipe. This reduces the 10m limit further.

Not to mention the flow rate.

The system simply wouldn't be efficient enough. You'd be lucky to get it into a usable state.

 

[jschmidt]

is the falling water (from the and of a pipe that is going 1km down) creating under presure?
is that underpresure the reason that you can transport water from the sea to the hole?
only the problem is that the enterence to the hole must not be 10 m above sea level

Could you try rephrasing that? I'm not trying to be mean, I just really have no idea what you're asking?

(I'd just like to say that I have respect for anyone trying to discuss science in a foreign language, because of all the domain-specific technical vocabulary, and because of the grammatical precision needed to clearly talk about complex topics clearly. Still, in the end, I don't understand this, so I must ask you to try again).

 

[antekatavic]

ok i agree that it would be less then 10 meters... but i think it would be at least 9... flow rate depends on how big the pipe is or how many pipes are there... but i do not think that is an issue... you would have enough water for sure

 

[antekatavic]

@j schmidt i just said what you said in a previus post... i was answering them not you
p.s. i do not speak english very well so sometimes...

 

[JaredJames]

ok i agree that it would be less then 10 meters... but i think it would be at least 9... flow rate depends on how big the pipe is or how many pipes are there... but i do not think that is an issue... you would have enough water for sure

Far too many assumptions there. Recommend you run the numbers. It's worthless otherwise.

 

[antekatavic]

@ jared i think that the factors that you are talking about work both ways
if the friction does not alow water to go up it does not alow water to go down... maybe 10 meters was a corect statement

 

[JaredJames]

@ jared i think that the factors that you are talking about work both ways
if the friction does not alow water to go up it does not alow water to go down... maybe 10 meters was a corect statement

Friction acts to retard the flow regardless of gradient. It degrades performance.

The longer the pipe, the greater the loss.

 

[antekatavic]

so if you conect two reservoirs 20 km apart with the same atmospheric presure the law of combined reservoirs would aplay there? would the water level be the same in two reservoirs if the atmospheric presure is the same. edit the pipe is going up end down not straight

 

[antekatavic]

now jared will go balistic

what if you put a turbine and generator in that hole so you have hydro and geotermal energy at once:!)

 

[JaredJames]

now jared will go balistic

what if you put a turbine and generator in that hole so you have hydro and geotermal energy at once:!)

You have to pump the water down the hole in the first place. It's a moot point.

Unless you run the numbers and check your assumptions I'm not willing to go further with this discussion. If you do so, you will see where errors are.

 

[antekatavic]

i do not have to pump it... i can let the weight of water to do that... if the pipe narows at one point then uper pipe will acumulate water let say 200meters of water... that is a big presure

 

[JaredJames]

Where are you pulling these numbers from? I will continue this discussion only after you show some calculations. For now, I'm out.

 

[antekatavic]

look i am not a physicist... i am trying to make you to do calculation... i am not smart enough
and this is not a joke or understaitment

 

[Drakkith]

antekatavic, give us a question as detailed as you can with what you want to know. We've already covered why a siphon will or will not work, so what else are you asking about? (I'm having a hard time following everything in this thread)

 

[antekatavic]

ok. I am interested if you run a pipe from sea to a hole nearby and all the way down to magma will it start syphoning efect(after you fill the whole pipe with water)...

and if you put a parallel pipe that is going almost all the way down and then conects to a first pipe will the steam come out... or just put parallel pipe (not conecting it to a first one)?

second question is way not put some turbines and generator in the ground so you could have hydro energy from a water that is going down and geotermal from a steam going up...

also if I need to pump water under presure I can do that simply by narowing the pipe at some level and leting the water above acumulate. This pipes are going kilometers deep so i would have presure if i need it.

only problem is that the pipe which is going from the sea to a hole must never reach altitude higher than 10 meters.

I think that friction would not have afect on that number, it will afect the speed of flow but the water will sooner or later reach that elevation if nesesary..

also i think that in this way you could have more then enough water to power 1st turbine and the second with a steam.

If you are thinking that the maintenance of 1st turbine under ground is dificult you could deal that so that you put turbine in a vacuum box and above is a pipe that has more than 10 meters of water at all times and under the turbines also there is always enough water to prevent this vacuum to disappear. In vacuum turbine would not corrosion and it would revolve faster and longer because there are no air resistance.

I am having hard time to explain something in english so I am sorry if somthing you do not understand what I wrote...
edit... the pipe from the sea would probably have to go kilometers before it comes to a place where the tectonic plates colide ( that is where you can use geotermal energy)

 

[russ_watters]

is it possible use syphoning efect to fill one hole (with sea water)that is going from surface all the way to magma, and drill a parallel hole to let the steam out?

If you have seawater flowing down into a hole by its own hydrostatic pressure, then being flashed to steam, it can come up through another pipe or tube because it is less dense going up than going down. This has nothing to do with siphoning. It's convection.

You could potentially even just use one tube and have a closed system that way. A lot of older home heating systems have one pipe and work the same way. Because the pipes would be long, though, a two-pipe convection system would be better.

Sorry about the capital letters in my first post: I was posting from a phone and capital letters are easier than bold.

 

[russ_watters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon
The second problem with the chain model of the siphon is that the weight of liquid on the up side of the siphon can be greater than the liquid on the down side, yet the siphon can still function. For example, if the tube from the upper reservoir to the top of the siphon has a much larger diameter than the section of tube from the lower reservoir to the top of the siphon, the shorter upper section of the siphon may have a much larger weight of liquid in it, yet the siphon can function normally.[11]

I don't see a question anywhere in there, just a quote. Is there something you're confused about? Do you understand that it is pressure that makes a siphon work, so if the pipe size changes, the mass (weight) of the water can be larger on the high side and the siphon can still work because the pressure is still lower.

 

[russ_watters]

what if you put a turbine and generator in that hole so you have hydro and geotermal energy at once:!)

If you siphon water from the sea over land to a pipe going down to a geothermal source, you could bury a turbine far down in the pipe and generate electricity from the falling water.

But, in so doing, you reduce the pressure of the water at the bottom of the pipe and thus reduce the pressure of the steam coming back up the pipe. There is no net gain in energy generated.

 

[antekatavic]

I am just asking if one of you has time to run some numbers and see if this what I wrote in my previus post would work.. I do not have a knowledge to do that... all that I said in previus post is my assumption...I never did any numbers

P.S. apology accepted

 

[russ_watters]

ok. I am interested if you run a pipe from sea to a hole nearby and all the way down to magma will it start syphoning efect(after you fill the whole pipe with water)...

and if you put a parallel pipe that is going almost all the way down and then conects to a first pipe will the steam come out... or just put parallel pipe (not conecting it to a first one)?

Yes. So far so good...

second question is way not put some turbines and generator in the ground so you could have hydro energy from a water that is going down and geotermal from a steam going up...

Won't help. See my previous post.

also if I need to pump water under presure I can do that simply by narowing the pipe at some level and leting the water above acumulate. This pipes are going kilometers deep so i would have presure if i need it.

No, you do not generate pressure by narrowing a pipe. The only relevant pressure here is hydrostatic pressure due to the weight of the column of water.

 

[russ_watters]

I am just asking if one of you has time to run some numbers and see if this what I wrote in my previus post would work.. I do not have a knowledge to do that... all that I said in previus post is my assumption...I never did any numbers

Run numbers on what? The idea doesn't have any numbers associated with it - I'd have to generate them with scratch and I don't even really know what you're after here. I don't need calculations to evaluate the concepts here and the limiting factor in your energy output would be the energy of the heat source.

 

[antekatavic]

the post that you do not see question is only a statement because I was trying to explain that siphon does not work because of the weight of falling water is higher then the one that is coming up.

 

[JaredJames]

Run numbers on what? The idea doesn't have any numbers associated with it - I'd have to generate them with scratch and I don't even really know what you're after here. I don't need calculations to evaluate the concepts here and the limiting factor in your energy output would be the energy of the heat source.

Now do you see what I'm trying to say antekatavic?

You are throwing random numbers around as if they mean something. This is why I wanted you to go right back to the beginning and outline exactly what you want and then work out some some actual numbers if you want meaningful analysis / response on that aspect.

I don't know what you're going for exactly, neither does Drakkith or russ, so it's not easy to comment.

 

[JaredJames]

I was trying to explain that siphon does not work because of the weight of falling water is higher then the one that is coming up.

EDIT: I see what your talking about.

 

[antekatavic]

Ok. first You are telling me to run numbers now not to... I do not know anymore...
does anything I wrote has any practical use anywhere on the planet or it is all nonsens

 

[antekatavic]

@ jared look what jschmidt wrote at th second page

 

[Drakkith]

Ok. first You are telling me to run numbers now not to... I do not know anymore...
does anything I wrote has any practical use anywhere on the planet or it is all nonsens

The concept is mostly fine, its just the details that could use some work.

 

[antekatavic]

The lowest exposed land on Earth is at the Dead Sea shore, at -413 meters. How about runing a pipe from mediteran sea to a dead sea... the bigest siphon ever!
you could run a turbines with the fall of wather of 423meters !

 

[antekatavic]

also you have much others depresion and they are almost all located near the sea, and where the tectonic plates colide

 

[JaredJames]

Again, you have to take into account resistive losses. The pipe itself will have a loss per meter and then every twist and turn will have one.

Particularly when considering long distances, you must factor them in.

You also need to consider the flow rate and how much power generation it would allow for.

 

[antekatavic]

I think the bigest problem would be that the pipe would had to be on big elevation from ground due to a fact that is a depresion! and that pipe fileed with water would be wery heavy... so you would have to put the pipe so it is folowing the ground and still you would have a big flow and presure because 420 meters is big elevation on a 300 km long pipe

edit but in this case it is not a siphon:(((((
edit: or maybe it can be if at the and of the pipe I have a vertical fall biger then 10 meters )