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Telepathy in dreamstate and OBEs

  1. Mar 27, 2009 #1
    The link below is part one and two of the secrets of sleep. It is a newly produced British documentary from 2008.

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRf835hwpKI"

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nZ6cOeNaEE&feature=related"

    Very interesting, saw this a couple of days ago.
    Personally I believe in telepathy. It is waiting for science to explain the phenomena, if you will, can call telepathy


    I am new to this page, registered today. I am overwhelmed of all the topics and subjects. All information it is so much :bugeye: . Finally a forum page I have been looking for.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
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  3. Mar 27, 2009 #2

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    For science to explain any phenomenon, it must first of all be verified scientifically, and not before that.

    Do you think telepathy has passed that first test? Is there a scientific consensus that such a phenomenon exists? Is there any evidence beyond just anecdotal evidence?

    Zz.
     
  4. Mar 27, 2009 #3
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    First of, let me mention that I am a scientist. Once another scientist friend of mine made a dream where he saw myself and yet another guy working on a problem and solving the problem, just as we were doing it. He described in many details what happened. Well, he knew us both very well, it might be just random that he dreamt of us solving this particular math problem. He would also have been able to solve it, and the fact that he described in great details how things happened can not be proven not to be a mixture of chance, imagination and him knowing us well. You might choose the easy and sexy explanation that he was really experiencing out of body lucid dream. But unfortunately, that's not even a theory, just fantasy. As long as you are aware that it is merely fantasy, you are fine. Otherwise, you may need professional help, as drifting away from reality can end up being dangerous.

    None of this is science, because the two scenarios describe perfectly well the same situation. You can always focus your attention on coincidences, but then you can not claim that they are a rule.
     
  5. Mar 28, 2009 #4

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The problem that I see is that we have no way to test and see if alleged "random" psychic events occur more frequently that we would expect due to chance. While we tend to assume these claims are coincidental due to a lack of evidence otherwise, to my knowledge there has never even been an attempt to quantify and test this explanation. So while "chance" may be the most sensible and mundain explanation for some claims, there is no evidence for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  6. Mar 28, 2009 #5
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The movie describes such an attempt. It is however not clear to me that it is significant. Let us say the "sender" tries to send an apple. If I am the dreamer, how many things will be considered correlated ? A pie ? A Sunday afternoon at my grandmother's ? An orange ? Will a banana count ? So I meant to say, you have means to justify a correlation, and will only count "uncorrelated" when your imagination fails...

    In this sense, it is intrinsically difficult to reject randomness.
     
  7. Mar 28, 2009 #6
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    So what do you people count as evidence? If not video documentary then what?
    I ask so that I can put in links that you consider as evidence.

    But this was rather interesting and somewhat convincing? The evidence points to telepathy and suggests that it could really exist?

    Out of body experience has occurred, in many cases they have described the surroundings and what was going on very accurate.
     
  8. Mar 28, 2009 #7

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    But out-of-body experience CAN be an illusion. In fact, there have been many scientific evidence that such a thing can be induced artificially.

    See H. Henrik Ehrsson Science v.317, p.104824 (2007); Bigna Lenggenhager et al. Science v.317, p. 1096 (2007).

    It means that the brain can be tricked!

    Notice that I gave you scientific papers, not YouTube videos, as my evidence. Proper scientific evidence is not done on YouTube.

    Zz.
     
  9. Mar 28, 2009 #8
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The link is from pftest, http://www.lucidity.com/LD9DIR.html. This is more likely to have a basis in reality compared to OBEs, in my opinion.
     
  10. Mar 28, 2009 #9

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I wish you stick to the practice of making an exact reference to these so-called "scientific demonstration" and where they were published. I've tried to show enough respect to people who participate in here to go to such lengths to not simply say things off the top of my head, but also find the exact citation to what I'm referring to. If people can't show the same courtesy to allow me to look up these things, then don't blame me when I lose my cool and consider these things as crackpottery.

    Zz.
     
  11. Mar 28, 2009 #10
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    1 to 74 ( or 75) million is a very, very small chance, althought still possible. How could this not be considered scientific evidence? They seem to have followed the scientific method. They definetly tested it thouroghly
     
  12. Mar 28, 2009 #11

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The signal must be above background "noise", i.e. it must be strong enough to rule out random chance!

    This is where I wish a lot of people who go through college get to do really good and relevant experimental work, not only to familiarize oneself with basic science, but also how one deals with data and to what level of confidence one can make a conclusion. This is the one aspect of intro physics that I wish gets revamped.

    Zz.
     
  13. Mar 28, 2009 #12
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I once had a teacher who had a brother. When my teacher (let’s just call him O) was sleeping one night, he had a dream that he was floating above his brother’s car and then he heard a very load crash that was like metal being crushed against metal. He then was awoken right after the crash by a phone call that his brother had been in a crash and was being driven to the hospital (this was all around 2 AM). O then got out of bed and went to the hospital where his brother was badly hurt. He needed many stitches and the doctors said he wouldn't be able to use his arm anymore (he eventually regained full use of his arm thankfully). The chances of O seeing his brother in a car and hearing a car crash that was many miles away (I think 15-20 miles) is incredibly unlikely.
     
  14. Mar 28, 2009 #13

    Evo

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The problem is that it is easier to remember the 'hits" and not the "misses". How many times do people have bad dreams that never happen? Constantly?
     
  15. Mar 28, 2009 #14
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I suppose you are correct however I don't know of people who have bad dreams frequently.
     
  16. Mar 28, 2009 #15

    Evo

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I wasn't saying that a single person was constantly having bad dreams, but that in general there are probably millions of people each day that have a dream where something bad happens. We also only remember a small fraction of what we dream, on average. I know people that swear that they never dream simply because they do not remember.
     
  17. Mar 28, 2009 #16

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I was referring to a test that would be statistically significant; and in particular where the dreams or visions [I am not limiting the discussion to dreams only] are subjectively significant to the person involved. Most people dream every night but don't find those dreams to be significant. The claim of a psychic vision or dream is relatively rare. There are plenty of examples where the person claiming the vision also claims the experience to be unique and subjectively significant. A typical example would the claim of knowing through a dream or feeling that a close family member has died.

    Again, while we can't reject coincidence, and while we might tend to assume this is the correct explanation, I don't think we can't cite it with certainty as the definitive explanation. It is really just a guess; or better said, we have no scientific evidence suggesting that it could be anything other than coincidence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  18. Mar 28, 2009 #17

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I was ignoring the alleged claims of subjectively insignficant dreams coming true. That is another class of claims that has to my knowledge never been tested.

    Obviously the reason that such tests haven't been done is that it would be very difficult to get good data in any quantity.
     
  19. Apr 1, 2009 #18
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I agree with you on this one. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be any technical research papers to look at.
     
  20. Apr 19, 2009 #19
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I agree that there is as of yet no reliable scientific evidence for telepathy. However, when concluding...

    ...you are approaching a slippery slope. Once you use this to discredit one observation... uh oh. Have we been all tricked into believing in gravity, sunshine, puppies? Is your brain being tricked right now? Tough to pull this one out in order to refute someone's claims and then try to defend one's own theories from the implications.

    Just a thought.
     
  21. Apr 19, 2009 #20

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    No, it isn't a slippery slope, because that is why we try to do reproducible experiments! Unless there is mass hallucinations with everyone hallucinating the SAME, identical results, only such reproducible experiments ensure that we are not being tricked into thinking that something did occur or did exist when it didn't. This is why science works and pseudoscience doesn't!

    Zz.
     
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