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Telepathy in dreamstate and OBEs

  1. Mar 27, 2009 #1
    The link below is part one and two of the secrets of sleep. It is a newly produced British documentary from 2008.

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRf835hwpKI"

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nZ6cOeNaEE&feature=related"

    Very interesting, saw this a couple of days ago.
    Personally I believe in telepathy. It is waiting for science to explain the phenomena, if you will, can call telepathy


    I am new to this page, registered today. I am overwhelmed of all the topics and subjects. All information it is so much :bugeye: . Finally a forum page I have been looking for.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
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  3. Mar 27, 2009 #2

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    For science to explain any phenomenon, it must first of all be verified scientifically, and not before that.

    Do you think telepathy has passed that first test? Is there a scientific consensus that such a phenomenon exists? Is there any evidence beyond just anecdotal evidence?

    Zz.
     
  4. Mar 27, 2009 #3
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    First of, let me mention that I am a scientist. Once another scientist friend of mine made a dream where he saw myself and yet another guy working on a problem and solving the problem, just as we were doing it. He described in many details what happened. Well, he knew us both very well, it might be just random that he dreamt of us solving this particular math problem. He would also have been able to solve it, and the fact that he described in great details how things happened can not be proven not to be a mixture of chance, imagination and him knowing us well. You might choose the easy and sexy explanation that he was really experiencing out of body lucid dream. But unfortunately, that's not even a theory, just fantasy. As long as you are aware that it is merely fantasy, you are fine. Otherwise, you may need professional help, as drifting away from reality can end up being dangerous.

    None of this is science, because the two scenarios describe perfectly well the same situation. You can always focus your attention on coincidences, but then you can not claim that they are a rule.
     
  5. Mar 28, 2009 #4

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The problem that I see is that we have no way to test and see if alleged "random" psychic events occur more frequently that we would expect due to chance. While we tend to assume these claims are coincidental due to a lack of evidence otherwise, to my knowledge there has never even been an attempt to quantify and test this explanation. So while "chance" may be the most sensible and mundain explanation for some claims, there is no evidence for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
  6. Mar 28, 2009 #5
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The movie describes such an attempt. It is however not clear to me that it is significant. Let us say the "sender" tries to send an apple. If I am the dreamer, how many things will be considered correlated ? A pie ? A Sunday afternoon at my grandmother's ? An orange ? Will a banana count ? So I meant to say, you have means to justify a correlation, and will only count "uncorrelated" when your imagination fails...

    In this sense, it is intrinsically difficult to reject randomness.
     
  7. Mar 28, 2009 #6
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    So what do you people count as evidence? If not video documentary then what?
    I ask so that I can put in links that you consider as evidence.

    But this was rather interesting and somewhat convincing? The evidence points to telepathy and suggests that it could really exist?

    Out of body experience has occurred, in many cases they have described the surroundings and what was going on very accurate.
     
  8. Mar 28, 2009 #7

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    But out-of-body experience CAN be an illusion. In fact, there have been many scientific evidence that such a thing can be induced artificially.

    See H. Henrik Ehrsson Science v.317, p.104824 (2007); Bigna Lenggenhager et al. Science v.317, p. 1096 (2007).

    It means that the brain can be tricked!

    Notice that I gave you scientific papers, not YouTube videos, as my evidence. Proper scientific evidence is not done on YouTube.

    Zz.
     
  9. Mar 28, 2009 #8
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The link is from pftest, http://www.lucidity.com/LD9DIR.html. This is more likely to have a basis in reality compared to OBEs, in my opinion.
     
  10. Mar 28, 2009 #9

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I wish you stick to the practice of making an exact reference to these so-called "scientific demonstration" and where they were published. I've tried to show enough respect to people who participate in here to go to such lengths to not simply say things off the top of my head, but also find the exact citation to what I'm referring to. If people can't show the same courtesy to allow me to look up these things, then don't blame me when I lose my cool and consider these things as crackpottery.

    Zz.
     
  11. Mar 28, 2009 #10
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    1 to 74 ( or 75) million is a very, very small chance, althought still possible. How could this not be considered scientific evidence? They seem to have followed the scientific method. They definetly tested it thouroghly
     
  12. Mar 28, 2009 #11

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The signal must be above background "noise", i.e. it must be strong enough to rule out random chance!

    This is where I wish a lot of people who go through college get to do really good and relevant experimental work, not only to familiarize oneself with basic science, but also how one deals with data and to what level of confidence one can make a conclusion. This is the one aspect of intro physics that I wish gets revamped.

    Zz.
     
  13. Mar 28, 2009 #12
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I once had a teacher who had a brother. When my teacher (let’s just call him O) was sleeping one night, he had a dream that he was floating above his brother’s car and then he heard a very load crash that was like metal being crushed against metal. He then was awoken right after the crash by a phone call that his brother had been in a crash and was being driven to the hospital (this was all around 2 AM). O then got out of bed and went to the hospital where his brother was badly hurt. He needed many stitches and the doctors said he wouldn't be able to use his arm anymore (he eventually regained full use of his arm thankfully). The chances of O seeing his brother in a car and hearing a car crash that was many miles away (I think 15-20 miles) is incredibly unlikely.
     
  14. Mar 28, 2009 #13

    Evo

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The problem is that it is easier to remember the 'hits" and not the "misses". How many times do people have bad dreams that never happen? Constantly?
     
  15. Mar 28, 2009 #14
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I suppose you are correct however I don't know of people who have bad dreams frequently.
     
  16. Mar 28, 2009 #15

    Evo

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I wasn't saying that a single person was constantly having bad dreams, but that in general there are probably millions of people each day that have a dream where something bad happens. We also only remember a small fraction of what we dream, on average. I know people that swear that they never dream simply because they do not remember.
     
  17. Mar 28, 2009 #16

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I was referring to a test that would be statistically significant; and in particular where the dreams or visions [I am not limiting the discussion to dreams only] are subjectively significant to the person involved. Most people dream every night but don't find those dreams to be significant. The claim of a psychic vision or dream is relatively rare. There are plenty of examples where the person claiming the vision also claims the experience to be unique and subjectively significant. A typical example would the claim of knowing through a dream or feeling that a close family member has died.

    Again, while we can't reject coincidence, and while we might tend to assume this is the correct explanation, I don't think we can't cite it with certainty as the definitive explanation. It is really just a guess; or better said, we have no scientific evidence suggesting that it could be anything other than coincidence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  18. Mar 28, 2009 #17

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I was ignoring the alleged claims of subjectively insignficant dreams coming true. That is another class of claims that has to my knowledge never been tested.

    Obviously the reason that such tests haven't been done is that it would be very difficult to get good data in any quantity.
     
  19. Apr 1, 2009 #18
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I agree with you on this one. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be any technical research papers to look at.
     
  20. Apr 19, 2009 #19
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I agree that there is as of yet no reliable scientific evidence for telepathy. However, when concluding...

    ...you are approaching a slippery slope. Once you use this to discredit one observation... uh oh. Have we been all tricked into believing in gravity, sunshine, puppies? Is your brain being tricked right now? Tough to pull this one out in order to refute someone's claims and then try to defend one's own theories from the implications.

    Just a thought.
     
  21. Apr 19, 2009 #20

    ZapperZ

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    No, it isn't a slippery slope, because that is why we try to do reproducible experiments! Unless there is mass hallucinations with everyone hallucinating the SAME, identical results, only such reproducible experiments ensure that we are not being tricked into thinking that something did occur or did exist when it didn't. This is why science works and pseudoscience doesn't!

    Zz.
     
  22. Apr 24, 2009 #21

    CRGreathouse

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    I don't think that has to be a problem. Just make a list (say, 100 items long) from which the sender will be given a randomly selected object. Then select some fixed number (say, 4) of other objects from the list and have the dreamer report which of those (five) items appeared in the dream, correlated as they find appropriate. Then see if, over a large number of trials, the correct item appears with greater than chance frequency.

    If the dreamer was presented with a list "house, bird, computer, apple, book" and said that of those only apples appeared, in the form of an apple pie, then that would lend more evidence toward telepathy than if they said that all (or none, etc.) appeared. If out of 100 tests the correct item was selected 98 times and the average number of items selected was 1.9, that would give strong evidence of telepathy (or cheating). If out of 100 tests the correct item was selected 61 times and on average 3.1 items were selected... that shows good evidence against telepathy.
     
  23. Apr 24, 2009 #22
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    Once you grasp how the brain works to perceive the environment you realize that, in an important way, you are always hallucinating: there is no completely objective way to represent a puppy or sunshine or the experience of centripetal acceleration, and what we experience amounts to one possible choice out of an infinity of choices.

    The particular quality of the sound of a flute, for example, is not an objective property of the air vibrations produced by a flute: with a different sort of sense organ for air vibrations and a different configuration of auditory neurons a flute would sound very different. The quality of the color red is not an objective property of EM radiation at that frequency range: the eyes and brain create the particular, specific experience we have of that frequency of light. Red is, in fact, a mass hallucination, as is blue. However, the fiction, red, consistently, and quite usefully, represents the external, objective fact: light in a certain frequency range.

    The same is true for the particular subjective experience we have of every sense impression: it's a non-objective, and non-inevitable way to represent objective, external phenomena. Mutations happen and the ones that work best get selected. (The way we represent the world to ourselves is, apparently, extremely useful: it works so well that we can usually march forward completely confident that what we see is absolutely what's there, that our perceptions are "real".)

    It is the fact of this 'processing' of stimuli into some sort of specific experience, though, that allows for hallucinations in the usual sense of the word: experiences that are total fiction in that they are generated from within the brain without being stimulated by any external phenomena. People who hear disembodied voices that no one else can hear are clearly not experiencing air vibrations. The brain is an organ, like any other in the body, and is subject to not working properly.

    How, at any given time, can you or anyone be sure you aren't experiencing a total fiction generated from within the brain? Unfortunately, you can't. You should, obviously, question experiences that are outside expectation: a guy I know once saw a 10 foot tall rabbit sitting in a vacant lot after 4 days without sleep. He was aware he was sleep deprived and the impossibility of the creature tipped him off to the fact he was hallucinating. Had he hallucinated an old junk car he would never have suspected anything. (He may, in fact, have hallucinated half the cars and pedestrians he saw that day, without realizing it.) Sometimes, though, even when confronted with impossibilities, the very mechanism that causes the hallucination also causes delusional thinking and the hallucination is not doubted, despite its being outlandish, out of place, or grossly contrary to expectation.

    Your question was about defending oneself against someone elses claim that the telepathic dream or Out-Of-Body experience was an hallucination. You can't, and shouldn't try. If you can't offer incontrovertible evidence or proof of a thing it's silly to expect anyone else to change their mind about it. When the subject comes up I offer my personal opinion that telepathy, or something that convincingly presents as telepathy, probably exists, based on things that have happened to me I can't otherwise explain. But because I can't give them any proof, I don't expect or require them to be persuaded, and am not particularly upset if they aren't. You may give your report of your encounter with bigfoot, sure, but you should not require or pressure anyone else to take it at face value if you can't substantiate it. That would amount to an assertion that the brain always works perfectly, or that yours does, anyway, which is something that could easily be disproved by subjecting you to various illusions, or by turning you over to a skilled hypnotist, like Derren Brown.
     
  24. Apr 24, 2009 #23
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    How science can approach a phenomena which is not repeatable upon demand and occurs relatively rarely?

    Two reasons I can think of that very real phenomena can not be repeated upon demand are:

    1) We don't know all of the necessary conditions for the phenomena to occur.
    2) We lack the capability to create the necessary conditions.

    There are many natural phenomena that we can't reproduce on demand, that doesn't mean that such phenomena should be immediately dismissed.

    I'm interested in precognitive dreams, out-of-body experiences, and telepathy because I have experienced all of them and I would very much like to be able to reproduce all of them on demand but can not. Any attempt to explore that seems to be immediately labeled pseudo-science.

    A friend that moved up from California. We would have conversations where we'd rarely get more than two or three words into a sentence before the other person would start to reply because they already knew what the rest of the sentence would be. It could be argued that context and familiarity made that possible not telepathy.

    He was describing a strip mall where he used to live and all of the sudden I had this picture in my minds eye and I could see it clearly, so I stopped him and named the stores and in what order, correctly. I had never been there.

    That visual kind of telepathy only happened to me once. Not only can I not do it on demand but in 3-1/2 decades since that time it has never happened again.

    I used to have lucid dreams in which as soon as I became aware I was dreaming, I could go anyplace or anywhere just by thinking about it. There are some very strange aspects of this that I could go into, but I just will say this much. I wanted to know if I was able to get real information about a remote location or if it was just something I was generating internally.

    To test this I went to a place where I hadn't been but was close enough that I could drive to it, wrote down everything I saw, then drove there and verified that what I had seen was in accurate.

    If I could make lucid dreams happen reliably, this is something that could be testable invoking third parties to task me with a location and verifying the accuracy of the data, but I can't. They happen when they happen, and unfortunately as I've grown older, that is much less frequently.

    I think people tend to dismiss things out of hand too quickly on the basis that they haven't been scientifically proven; if they haven't been scientifically disproven then it should be just accepted as an unknown and something worthy of further research.

    If instead of dismissing out of hand, one takes a bit more open minded approaches and starts looking for commonalities between these experiences, perhaps we'll eventually discover the necessary conditions to make them reproducible on demand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2009
  25. Apr 25, 2009 #24
    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    The Out-Of-Body experience has been demonstrated to be a neurological phenomenon, a temporary failure, or blocking of, the sense of proprioception coupled with a release hallucination. It's been known for decades that it commonly happens to some people diagnosed with seizures, and also to some people who suffer from Migraines, and it was specifically located to an area on the temporo-parietal junction a couple years ago when it was induced in a woman with epilepsy who was about to undergo epilepsy surgery. Another class of people who seem to report frequent OBE's is heavy pot smokers, I recently found out.

    Believers in the authenticity of the OBE are generally upset to find out there's any sort of coherent neurological explanation for it, it seems, and rush to form a sort of "callous" of rationalizations around this information, to prevent disillusionment I suppose, the main one offered being that these pathological and induced OBE's don't necessarily rule out the possibility of 'authentic' OBE's.

    You may not be familiar with the sense of proprioception. You can google, and also read the chapter called "The Disembodied Lady" in Oliver Sacks' book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat, which abundantly demonstrates the importance of this sense and how its loss can devastate a person's life.

    The phenomenon of release hallucinations is demonstrated in the Phantom Limb phenomenon (you can also google that) as well as in the phenomenon of Musical Hallucinations that are suffered by some people after a certain degree of hearing loss. It's most common in the elderly. The basic mechanism is that, when deprived of stimulation by normal sensory input, the "starved" area of the brain is vulnerable to erroneous stimulation by the surrounding neurons. This is described at length in Sacks' newest book Musicophilia . Its a version of the same thing that happens in the sensory deprivation tank. (Sounds like you might be of an age to remember that fad from the late 70', early 80's.) I read yesterday that if you cut a ping pong ball in half, tape one half over each eye and lie down with a radio playing but which is tuned to static (white noise), you get the same result as from a sensory deprivation tank. I don't know, I haven't tried it, and don't recommend it. The point is sensory deprivation is one known cause of hallucinations.

    So, anyway, the OBE that is, in fact, repeatable in the lab, in principle anyway, and which might be studied, is not acceptable to the believers. I have to suppose that anyone who has trained themselves to do this at will and could undergo a brain scan while doing it would be rejected by the believers as having a non-authentic OBE if their brain activity showed up at this spot, and they would be rejected by the neuroscientists if no brain activity did show up at this spot.
     
  26. Apr 29, 2009 #25

    fuzzyfelt

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    Re: Telepathy in dreamstate

    Are there some references for the first couple of paragraphs in the previous post, too?
     
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