Texas polygamist raid

  • #101
lisab
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Really? I guess I figured that since their probably cause was not really probable cause, anything they found would be 'poisoned fruit'. I'm not a lawyer, though - I just watch too much Law and Order.
That's what I thought too, Russ, but a reporter said that if the authorities acted on good faith (and it appears they did), and since the crimes involve child abuse, that the evidence will stand. That makes sense; I can't imagine the law allowing child abuse to continue because of a technicality.
 
  • #102
russ_watters
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If you do watch Law and Order, then may recall the episode in which Lt. VanBuren's old superior, now an executive at a Wal-Mart lookalike, provided information that led to a search. The search was invalidated when it appeared he had provided false information with VanBuren's knowledge. When it was determined she did not know the information was bad, the search results were readmitted. I hate to base legal stuff on TV, but I believe that principle generally holds.
Lol, I guess I missed that episode! I looked around for some info in this, but I didn't find anything concrete enough. #3 here seems to apply, though, so I'm still unsure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusionary_rule#Exceptions_to_the_rule
lisab said:
That's what I thought too, Russ, but a reporter said that if the authorities acted on good faith (and it appears they did), and since the crimes involve child abuse, that the evidence will stand. That makes sense; I can't imagine the law allowing child abuse to continue because of a technicality.
Those are two separate issues - the police may or may not be able to prosecute past crimes based on a tainted search, but they can certainly stop ongoing and future crimes. They can't prosecute for a possible future crime though, obviously. That's why I said in post 99 that this bad intel could keep them out of jail (I'm unsure now), but it certainly would not get them their kids back if the authorities think they are in danger.
 
  • #103
It appears that the 911 calls may have been fraudulent: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/polygamy.fri/index.html#cnnSTCText
I forgot to come back here and say [post=1680386]I TOTALLY CALLED IT!!![/post] Wheee-hoo! :biggrin: :rolleyes:

Yeah, them being unable to find the girl, then deciding to take all the kids in the town was just a little bit suspicious... Thank you, U.S. media, for swallowing all that hook, line, and sinker... I hope some justice gets done in this case, rather than something that drives Mormons further away from the mainstream and endangers more kids (and establishes some history of modern religious persecution in the U.S.).
 
  • #104
Four days after that story was reported and CNN who reported it still have the photo of the guy the fake caller accused at the top of their page for the FLDS:

http://topics.cnn.com/topics/fundamentalist_church_of_jesus_christ_of_latter_day_saints [Broken]
 
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  • #105
russ_watters
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So this is fun: 31 of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 either have children or are currently pregnant. It could get worse: it appears that the FLDS officials may be lying about the girls' ages to make them older to avoid the legal issues. That's still being worked out. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-04-28-polygamist-girls_N.htm
 
  • #106
Gokul43201
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I forgot to come back here and say [post=1680386]I TOTALLY CALLED IT!!![/post] Wheee-hoo! :biggrin: :rolleyes:

Yeah, them being unable to find the girl, then deciding to take all the kids in the town was just a little bit suspicious...
I think your argument is still flawed. The rationale for removal of the children was not based on the phone call, but based on the observation of pregnant minors. Unless I'm mistaken, the warrant granted on the basis of the call was only for the purposes of searching the ranch, not for taking custody of children. And Texas law permits taking all children from a home if there is suspicion that any one child in the household has been abused.
 
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  • #107
lisab
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Medical exams and reports by the children indicate that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

Forty-one percent had broken a bone...how does this compare to the general population? Seems high to me.

Then again, I doubt these kids have ever spent time watching TV, playing video games, or surfing the web. Maybe they've done activities that are more hazardous (we used to call it "playing").
 
  • #108
Evo
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I think your argument is still flawed. The rationale for removal of the children was not based on the phone call, but based on the observation of pregnant minors. Unless I'm mistaken, the warrant granted on the basis of the call was only for the purposes of searching the ranch, not for taking custody of children. And Texas law permits taking all children from a home if there is suspicion that any one child in the household has been abused.
Exactly.
 
  • #109
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/

Forty-one percent had broken a bone...how does this compare to the general population? Seems high to me.
If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.
 
  • #110
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If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.
It also depends on what bones were broken and if the breaks seem normal for a fall or blunt force or unusual breaks. Or maybe I watch too many crime shows.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.
That's WAY above. And considering they all live together, there's just no way to brush that aside.
 
  • #111
lisab
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If it's 41 out of the 450 odd children, that's more like 9%, but they don't yet have records for all the children.

Also disturbing is that about 60% of underage teens are either pregnant or have conceived in the past. That, I'm sure, is way above the national average.
Aaaaah...you're right; it is 41, not 41%. That's different...doesn't seem out of normal range to me.

60% of underage girls moms or moms-to-be...yep, that's not normal!
 
  • #112
russ_watters
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Then again, I doubt these kids have ever spent time watching TV, playing video games, or surfing the web. Maybe they've done activities that are more hazardous (we used to call it "playing").
They've probably also never played organized sports, though.
 
  • #113
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The court of appeals in Austin just ruled in favor of the families. Now they just need to charge the morons who took all those kids with kidnapping...
 
  • #114
Gokul43201
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

"Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may some day have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal prior to full litigation of the issue."
...
Later, flanked by some of the FLDS mothers represented in the case, Balovich explained that authorities considered YFZ ranch one household, an assertion with which the appeals court did not agree.

Therefore, proving there was abuse in one household did not mean the state could apply that behavior to the entire ranch.
 
  • #115
Art
It is good to see common sense prevailed. If you were to randomly pick any sink estate in the UK and investigate how the kids are treated you would find far worse and more plentiful cases of abuse and I suspect the same would be true with their US equivalents but to suggest in consequence all children from lower working class homes should be taken into care would be unrealistic to put it mildly.

I wonder will Texas now be liable for a hefty damages payout??
 
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  • #116
Gokul43201
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It is good to see common sense prevailed. If you were to randomly pick any sink estate in the UK and investigate how the kids are treated you would find far worse and more plentiful cases of abuse and I suspect the same would be true with their US equivalents but to suggest in consequence all children from lower working class homes should be taken into care would be unrealistic to put it mildly.
I didn't know that the authorities raided all the Mormon neighborhoods in the country and took away their children!

To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.
 
  • #117
Art
I didn't know that the authorities raided all the Mormon neighborhoods in the country and took away their children!

To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.
Which is akin to the analogy I gave of the likely result of treating all of a sink housing estate as a single household.
 
  • #118
russ_watters
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To my knowledge they found evidence of abuse at this one ranch and took only the children that were in that particular compound. They apparently failed to convince the judge that the entire ranch should be treated as a single household.
Given the nature of the FLDS organization, I still think there is a letigimate argument to be made there, even if it doesn't fit the letter of the law. I think there is a decent chance this ruling may be overturned.

In an effort to build a parallel, consider what would happen if a gated community at a country club made its own school on the grounds (rich people need to indocrinate their kids too). At the school, the kids were abused. What could be done about it?
 
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  • #119
lisab
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I look at this situation through the eyes of the local authorities -- they had little choice but to take the course they did. Wow, they were in a tough spot! I think they were very courageous.
 
  • #120
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Which is akin to the analogy I gave of the likely result of treating all of a sink housing estate as a single household.
I don't know what a sink estate is but it sounded like you were saying the entire lower working class was being treated like a household, not just one sink estate.
 
  • #121
Art
I don't know what a sink estate is but it sounded like you were saying the entire lower working class was being treated like a household, not just one sink estate.
A sink estate is a British council housing estate characterised by high levels of economic and social deprivation. Many are no-go areas for the authorities and the children are practically feral hunting in packs.
 

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