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The Battle of the Prophecies

  1. Aug 21, 2003 #1

    Another God

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    Can the truth of the Bible be shown through accuracy in prophecy?

    This thread is meant to be a logical progression, one step at a time through this question, looking at one prophecy, evaluating what it means, what time it refers to, and how it accured in reality/completely failed to occur in reality.

    The intent is that we have a pro-Bible person present an accurate, legitimate prophecy, and prove that the prophecy is as they say it is. After that prophecy is dealt with (accepted or denied), an anti-Bible person has a turn to present an obviously false prophecy, and prove that what was said in the Bible never happened in reality.



    I will ask for moderator assistance here if I need to, I want this thread to be remain under complete control. Only ONE prophecy is to be looked at at any one time, and that prophecy must be dealt with until all parties involved are happy to agree that it either happened or it didn't, and that the Bible Legitimately prophecised it or didn't.

    Let the battle begin...
     
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  3. Aug 21, 2003 #2

    Another God

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    To start this battle off, I am presenting a prophecy which is claimed to be accurate and modern on behalf of Dark Wing. I don't know much about this myself but here it is:

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    (Full Chapter )

    Now, the daily sacrifice is supposed to be a well recognised christian site, a place where daily sacrifices took place all throughout the old testament. I don't know of this place, but I hope someone will be able to fill this gap in for me.

    The fullfillment of the prophecy is supposed to be when the Muslims built the 'Dome of the Rock'(?) ontop of this holy place. The Muslim shrine being called in the prophecy the 'Abomination that maketh desolation'

    That is the prophecy of which I am proposing to be foretold, and accurately fulfilled on behalf of Dark Wing.

    The consequence of this prophecy, interestingly enough, is that if it is true, then we also know that the 'End of Days' will be 1290 after that (with only the blessed living to see 1335 after this abomination event...)
     
  4. Aug 21, 2003 #3
    I don';t claim to understand any of this...can you clarify what this means, in simpler terms? Specifically, from what date does the "thousand two hundred and ninety days." refer to, and is that actually 1290 days? And then, does "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" mean 1335 days, or 1305 years plus a month?
     
  5. Aug 21, 2003 #4

    Another God

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    "At this hallowed site, known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691"

    Dome of the Rock
    So there can be no debate that this happened AFTER the prophecy was written in the bible.

    Now, 687 + 1290 = 1977

    Unless i have forgotten to carry a one somewhere, thats not a good sign for the prophecy...

    so 1977 - 1981 (oohhh... I was born in 81!!!!)
    or
    687 + 1335 = 2022
    so 2022 - 2026

    Hmm, well, looking at the prophecy, it actually says nothing about what happens 1290 days afterwards...it only says that you're blessed if you see 1335...



    well, anyway. That site has a lot of really good information, but it doesn't make reference to there being any 'sacrifice' relation of the site. Someone still needs to make that connection more apparent for my liking. Without that, there is no prophecy.
     
  6. Aug 21, 2003 #5

    Another God

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    Obviously this is answered in my last post with one possible actual answer, but from the passage itself, it refers to whatever date is 1290 days after the "time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up."

    What else would it be? I don't like the bible any more than you do zero, but don't go trying to make it seem more vague than it is. It isn't fair.

    What is the difference?
     
  7. Aug 21, 2003 #6
    This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.
     
  8. Aug 21, 2003 #7

    Another God

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    OK, Zero, Like I said: I don't know about the 'Daily sacrifice' phrase, but maybe someone else out there does. DW tells me that the place where the Dome of the Rock was built was a biblical site for the Daily Sacrifice.

    I don't know, but I have given all I can give, and now we await conformation/denial of the daily sacrifice element. That will basically give us what we need to know. If this site is where christians practiced daily sacrifices for thousands of years, and then the muslims built a huge temple on that site, I think it seems reasonable to say that 'The abomination that causes desolation' would refer to something like that.

    SO please...please please.. stop pointing out all of the potential problems, and the bits which you don't liek, and the bits which could be made up, and how there could be errors with the application etc etc etc, because I know. I know, i know i know.... I don't want this thread to be full of posts trying to tell people how things 'Might be' until all of the facts are out. So unless you have something specific to say about the prophecy, then please wait until the discussion of the facts comes up.

    We haven't got all of the facts on this prophecy yet. Come back then.
     
  9. Aug 21, 2003 #8
    Ok, can do...I don't want to toss a wrench in your deal.
     
  10. Aug 21, 2003 #9

    kat

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    Okay, I'll give this a small shot (it's not anything I'm really UP on but...:wink: )

    I think that it's first important to discuss what "sacrifice" means in this instance. Neither Daniel 11:31 nor 12:11 mention burnt offering or sacrifice as referred to in the O.T.. The Hebrew used is HaTamid, which translated means the continual or constant, always, as in daily. This could possibly refer to the daily sacrifice of burnt offering as would be assumed except that Daniel 9:27 does not mention olat tamid or burnt offering which would be sacrificed twice daily, or mincha the daily meal offering which is made in the morning and afternoon, or even zavach which is the slaughterd sacrifice.So we can assume it is something which is not necessarily a burnt animal sacrifice which is offered up there daily, and this type of day to day offering will be made to exist no longer.

    The Jews have been practising HaTamid since the Babylonian captivity. This has been continual an has never ceased, it can be observed at the Western Wall of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. The prayers of Israel are at the time of the morning and evening sacrifices, and at the hour of the burning of incense, at 3:00 in the afternoon. In the Bible Daniel prayed 3 times a day at the same time periods that the daily oblations were to be offered in the Temple. Ever since the destruction of the Second Temple and the Dispersion of the Jews they have practiced Daniel’s "mincha".

    The Western Wall sits under the Dome of the Rock, which I believe was built on top of the site of the second temple. The Muslim's call this the al-Buraq Wall because, I believe, the Prophet Mohammad flew from Mecca to Jerusalem and tied some sort of two-winged animal (al-Buraq) to the wall before ascending to heaven to speak to God for the first time.
    The Muslims consider the al-buraq Wall which is also part of the western wall of al-Aqsa mosque and all the walls of al-Aqsa as part of the Islamic religious trust, belonging only to Muslims.
    The Jews call the mosque compound Temple Mount and worship it as the site where the biblical temples stood. It is Judaism's holiest site.

    The rock from which Muslims believe Mohammad ascended to heaven in the seventh century is today known as the centrepiece of the Dome of the Rock.
    This is perhaps one of the most difficult issues in any peaceful resolution that might be found between palestinians and israeli's.
     
  11. Aug 21, 2003 #10

    kat

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    A possible date could also be during the period that the Egyptian Caliphs took over the area (strict islam sect). But, I don't believe that prayer was actually interupted at the Western wall at that point. It was interupted for Christian pilgrimages during the invasion of turks but I still do not believe that Jews were prohibited, I think they were well favored by the Turkish ruler. I could be mistaken. I'm not sure what the dates were, but they were much later then the date you used above.
    During the 1947-48 War for Israel's independence the wall was taken and controled by the Arab armies of Jordan. The Jews were not allowed access to the wall, later after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel gained control of the Wall and access was again opened to the Jews.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2003
  12. Aug 21, 2003 #11

    LURCH

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    Regarding the "something more specific":

    When the site in the link speaks of the building of the Dome of the Rock, it says "At this Hallowed site...". The "hallowed site" being reffered to is the location of the temple of Jerusalem (King Solomon's Temple), given in the prophecy as the exact location of "the abomination that brings desolation". Given in this detail, it is quite understandable to interpret the building of the Dome as the fulfillment of this prophecy. However, it is my opinion that this determination was made in error, probably by people who were trying to avoid the pitfall of interpreting prophecy too literally. Bible prophecy is, after all, filled with metaphors and symbolism.

    One excellent example of this is the prophecy of Israel "becoming a nation" again (I know you didn't want to discuss other prophecys yet, but I think this one is pertinent to the current discussion). Many Bible scholars thought this to be a metaphorical reference to the Christian Church. However, we now know this prediction to be literal.

    Given this new information, it would seem to me that the coming of the "abomination" predicted in the books of Daniel and Revelation cannot take place until after Israel became a nation (May 14, 1948). By this interpretation, it would appear that a Jewish Temple will once again stand at that location. It is this Temple which will be usurped by the so-called "man of evil", and set up as a place in which he himself is to be worshiped as God. This event appears to take place in the middle up a time period Christians refer to as "the tribulation", a seven-year period during which many prophecies will be fulfilled. When these "seven years" begin, the Jewish Temple will be standing. In the middle of the seven years, several changes are foretold, one of which is the "abomination that brings desolation", which will stand from that time until the end of the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years (about 1290 days).

    As I have stated in other discussions, once a prophecy is made only three possibilities remain:

    A) the prophecy has been fulfilled

    B) the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but will be

    C) the prophecy is false.

    As I interpret this prophecy, only B and C remain.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2003
  13. Aug 21, 2003 #12

    Another God

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    oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

    HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

    Thanks Lurch.
     
  14. Aug 21, 2003 #13
    You missed when I asked you about that?
     
  15. Aug 21, 2003 #14

    LURCH

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    Not such a big mistake. As I mentioned earlier, there is a danger in enterpreting Bible prophecy too litterally. So, taking the word "day" to mean year could actually be a correct approach. The word "day" could mean "year", "generation" or simply,"time-period". This, BTW, is supported wihtin the text itself, so you don't have to believe in prophecy fullfillment to apply it. For example, the "seven years" to which I reffered earlier is elsewhere called the "day of Abraham's distress" or "...Abraham's trouble".

    That's not so different from modern usage, I suppose. When somebody says, "back in my day..." you don't start wondering "which day was yours? Was it a weekday or a Saturday..." or stuff like that. I think that the "days" reffered to in this passage are litteral, but they might not be.
     
  16. Aug 21, 2003 #15
    Lurch and AG,
    The problem of using this type of prophecy to prove anything has one flaw. Since you are not speaking of exact literal interpretations (at least according to Lurch), then interpretation is very important. The interpretations need to be a commonly accepted meanings, accepted by most biblical scholars, otherwise you may be falling into the trap of interpreting the bible to fit today's known facts. Something, I feel, happens all to often with Nostradamus's writings.
     
  17. Aug 21, 2003 #16

    LURCH

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    True, it does make it hard to use prophecy to "predict" the future in any detail. The meanings of many prophecies become clear only after the fact. But the interpretation I have mentioned regardiong this prophecy is widely held, though not universally, and have at least some rationale to back them up. For example, the reason I and many others take the "1290 days" to be literal is because an event fitting the same description is said to occur in the middle of the "seven years". Elsewhere, this "abomination" is said to go on for "a time, times, and a half a time" (that's 1T + at least 2T + 1/2T) suggesting, if not demanding, 3 1/2 T. Taken in the context of other statements that it would be "1290 days", or "at the midpoint of the seven years", it does not seem too much of the stretch to say that the value of T is one year.

    Whole different kettle fish; the writings of Nostradamus are re-written to fit today's known facts. I think we can all agree that that is not being done with the Bible. Or is there still some question as to the Bible "changing its story" over time?
     
  18. Aug 22, 2003 #17

    Another God

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    I just want to put everyones fears to rest once again: I do not intend to let any 'Fitting of the facts to the event' through in this thread. I want solid evidence from both sides to justify any interpretations, not just fitting the possible interpretations with events.

    OK? So don't suggest anymore that this could be a problem, because it isn't going to happen. not on my watch.

    Now, I have spoken to DW, and she says that days is to be interpretted years (I laughed at her) ...because... In the old days any long period of time was expressed as days even though they meant years.... I expressed my dislike of this, but she claimed that this is not a phenomenon only present in the bible, but has actually been used in Astronomy all throughout history, even into modern times and is still used.

    Does anyone know of the term 'Days' being used to express years? A solid reference of example would be nice.
    Summary
    OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'
    We need to verify that Days can realistically be interpretted to = Years.
    And I would like some reason to suspect that this prophecy even refers to the Dome Of The Rock. (this depends on how good the 'Daily Sacrifice' point is. If there is one location definitively known as 'The Daily Sacrifice' throughout the bible, and it happens to be the precise place the Dome was built, then i think that that is good enough for me.)

    If all these factors came together, I would be convinced for sure. Everyone happy with that?
     
  19. Aug 22, 2003 #18

    FZ+

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    Then, by claiming that there is an equal (or greater) probability that days in fact means... days, I resubmit this as a false prophecy.
     
  20. Aug 22, 2003 #19
    A Day for Each Year

     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2003
  21. Aug 22, 2003 #20
    Post moved because it was felt to stray from the narrow focus of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2003
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