The Battle of the Prophecies

  • #1
Another God
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Can the truth of the Bible be shown through accuracy in prophecy?

This thread is meant to be a logical progression, one step at a time through this question, looking at one prophecy, evaluating what it means, what time it refers to, and how it accured in reality/completely failed to occur in reality.

The intent is that we have a pro-Bible person present an accurate, legitimate prophecy, and prove that the prophecy is as they say it is. After that prophecy is dealt with (accepted or denied), an anti-Bible person has a turn to present an obviously false prophecy, and prove that what was said in the Bible never happened in reality.



I will ask for moderator assistance here if I need to, I want this thread to be remain under complete control. Only ONE prophecy is to be looked at at any one time, and that prophecy must be dealt with until all parties involved are happy to agree that it either happened or it didn't, and that the Bible Legitimately prophecised it or didn't.

Let the battle begin...
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
Another God
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To start this battle off, I am presenting a prophecy which is claimed to be accurate and modern on behalf of Dark Wing. I don't know much about this myself but here it is:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

(Full Chapter )

Now, the daily sacrifice is supposed to be a well recognised christian site, a place where daily sacrifices took place all throughout the old testament. I don't know of this place, but I hope someone will be able to fill this gap in for me.

The fullfillment of the prophecy is supposed to be when the Muslims built the 'Dome of the Rock'(?) ontop of this holy place. The Muslim shrine being called in the prophecy the 'Abomination that maketh desolation'

That is the prophecy of which I am proposing to be foretold, and accurately fulfilled on behalf of Dark Wing.

The consequence of this prophecy, interestingly enough, is that if it is true, then we also know that the 'End of Days' will be 1290 after that (with only the blessed living to see 1335 after this abomination event...)
 
  • #3
I don';t claim to understand any of this...can you clarify what this means, in simpler terms? Specifically, from what date does the "thousand two hundred and ninety days." refer to, and is that actually 1290 days? And then, does "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" mean 1335 days, or 1305 years plus a month?
 
  • #4
Another God
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"At this hallowed site, known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691"

Dome of the Rock
So there can be no debate that this happened AFTER the prophecy was written in the bible.

Now, 687 + 1290 = 1977

Unless i have forgotten to carry a one somewhere, thats not a good sign for the prophecy...

so 1977 - 1981 (oohhh... I was born in 81!!!!)
or
687 + 1335 = 2022
so 2022 - 2026

Hmm, well, looking at the prophecy, it actually says nothing about what happens 1290 days afterwards...it only says that you're blessed if you see 1335...



well, anyway. That site has a lot of really good information, but it doesn't make reference to there being any 'sacrifice' relation of the site. Someone still needs to make that connection more apparent for my liking. Without that, there is no prophecy.
 
  • #5
Another God
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Originally posted by Zero
from what date does the "thousand two hundred and ninety days." refer to

Obviously this is answered in my last post with one possible actual answer, but from the passage itself, it refers to whatever date is 1290 days after the "time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up."

and is that actually 1290 days?
What else would it be? I don't like the bible any more than you do zero, but don't go trying to make it seem more vague than it is. It isn't fair.

And then, does "thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" mean 1335 days, or 1305 years plus a month?
What is the difference?
 
  • #6
Originally posted by Another God
"At this hallowed site, known in Arabic as Haram al Sharif, the 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691"

Dome of the Rock
So there can be no debate that this happened AFTER the prophecy was written in the bible.

Now, 687 + 1290 = 1977

Unless i have forgotten to carry a one somewhere, thats not a good sign for the prophecy...

so 1977 - 1981 (oohhh... I was born in 81!!!!)
or
687 + 1335 = 2022
so 2022 - 2026

Hmm, well, looking at the prophecy, it actually says nothing about what happens 1290 days afterwards...it only says that you're blessed if you see 1335...



well, anyway. That site has a lot of really good information, but it doesn't make reference to there being any 'sacrifice' relation of the site. Someone still needs to make that connection more apparent for my liking. Without that, there is no prophecy.

This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.
 
  • #7
Another God
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Originally posted by Zero
This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.
OK, Zero, Like I said: I don't know about the 'Daily sacrifice' phrase, but maybe someone else out there does. DW tells me that the place where the Dome of the Rock was built was a biblical site for the Daily Sacrifice.

I don't know, but I have given all I can give, and now we await conformation/denial of the daily sacrifice element. That will basically give us what we need to know. If this site is where christians practiced daily sacrifices for thousands of years, and then the muslims built a huge temple on that site, I think it seems reasonable to say that 'The abomination that causes desolation' would refer to something like that.

SO please...please please.. stop pointing out all of the potential problems, and the bits which you don't liek, and the bits which could be made up, and how there could be errors with the application etc etc etc, because I know. I know, i know i know.... I don't want this thread to be full of posts trying to tell people how things 'Might be' until all of the facts are out. So unless you have something specific to say about the prophecy, then please wait until the discussion of the facts comes up.

We haven't got all of the facts on this prophecy yet. Come back then.
 
  • #8
Originally posted by Another God
OK, Zero, Like I said: I don't know about the 'Daily sacrifice' phrase, but maybe someone else out there does. DW tells me that the place where the Dome of the Rock was built was a biblical site for the Daily Sacrifice.

I don't know, but I have given all I can give, and now we await conformation/denial of the daily sacrifice element. That will basically give us what we need to know. If this site is where christians practiced daily sacrifices for thousands of years, and then the muslims built a huge temple on that site, I think it seems reasonable to say that 'The abomination that causes desolation' would refer to something like that.

SO please...please please.. stop pointing out all of the potential problems, and the bits which you don't liek, and the bits which could be made up, and how there could be errors with the application etc etc etc, because I know. I know, i know i know.... I don't want this thread to be full of posts trying to tell people how things 'Might be' until all of the facts are out. So unless you have something specific to say about the prophecy, then please wait until the discussion of the facts comes up.

We haven't got all of the facts on this prophecy yet. Come back then.

Ok, can do...I don't want to toss a wrench in your deal.
 
  • #9
kat
39
0
Okay, I'll give this a small shot (it's not anything I'm really UP on but...:wink: )

I think that it's first important to discuss what "sacrifice" means in this instance. Neither Daniel 11:31 nor 12:11 mention burnt offering or sacrifice as referred to in the O.T.. The Hebrew used is HaTamid, which translated means the continual or constant, always, as in daily. This could possibly refer to the daily sacrifice of burnt offering as would be assumed except that Daniel 9:27 does not mention olat tamid or burnt offering which would be sacrificed twice daily, or mincha the daily meal offering which is made in the morning and afternoon, or even zavach which is the slaughterd sacrifice.So we can assume it is something which is not necessarily a burnt animal sacrifice which is offered up there daily, and this type of day to day offering will be made to exist no longer.

The Jews have been practising HaTamid since the Babylonian captivity. This has been continual an has never ceased, it can be observed at the Western Wall of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. The prayers of Israel are at the time of the morning and evening sacrifices, and at the hour of the burning of incense, at 3:00 in the afternoon. In the Bible Daniel prayed 3 times a day at the same time periods that the daily oblations were to be offered in the Temple. Ever since the destruction of the Second Temple and the Dispersion of the Jews they have practiced Daniel’s "mincha".

The Western Wall sits under the Dome of the Rock, which I believe was built on top of the site of the second temple. The Muslim's call this the al-Buraq Wall because, I believe, the Prophet Mohammad flew from Mecca to Jerusalem and tied some sort of two-winged animal (al-Buraq) to the wall before ascending to heaven to speak to God for the first time.
The Muslims consider the al-buraq Wall which is also part of the western wall of al-Aqsa mosque and all the walls of al-Aqsa as part of the Islamic religious trust, belonging only to Muslims.
The Jews call the mosque compound Temple Mount and worship it as the site where the biblical temples stood. It is Judaism's holiest site.

The rock from which Muslims believe Mohammad ascended to heaven in the seventh century is today known as the centrepiece of the Dome of the Rock.
This is perhaps one of the most difficult issues in any peaceful resolution that might be found between palestinians and israeli's.
 
  • #10
kat
39
0
A possible date could also be during the period that the Egyptian Caliphs took over the area (strict islam sect). But, I don't believe that prayer was actually interupted at the Western wall at that point. It was interupted for Christian pilgrimages during the invasion of turks but I still do not believe that Jews were prohibited, I think they were well favored by the Turkish ruler. I could be mistaken. I'm not sure what the dates were, but they were much later then the date you used above.
During the 1947-48 War for Israel's independence the wall was taken and controled by the Arab armies of Jordan. The Jews were not allowed access to the wall, later after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel gained control of the Wall and access was again opened to the Jews.
 
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  • #11
LURCH
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Originally posted by Zero
This sounds like selective application. Unless there is something more specific, I'm sure there could be an event in almost any year that could be associated with a timeframe listed in the Bible. You can then 'cheat', and 'prove' the prophesy to be accurate.

Regarding the "something more specific":

When the site in the link speaks of the building of the Dome of the Rock, it says "At this Hallowed site...". The "hallowed site" being reffered to is the location of the temple of Jerusalem (King Solomon's Temple), given in the prophecy as the exact location of "the abomination that brings desolation". Given in this detail, it is quite understandable to interpret the building of the Dome as the fulfillment of this prophecy. However, it is my opinion that this determination was made in error, probably by people who were trying to avoid the pitfall of interpreting prophecy too literally. Bible prophecy is, after all, filled with metaphors and symbolism.

One excellent example of this is the prophecy of Israel "becoming a nation" again (I know you didn't want to discuss other prophecys yet, but I think this one is pertinent to the current discussion). Many Bible scholars thought this to be a metaphorical reference to the Christian Church. However, we now know this prediction to be literal.

Given this new information, it would seem to me that the coming of the "abomination" predicted in the books of Daniel and Revelation cannot take place until after Israel became a nation (May 14, 1948). By this interpretation, it would appear that a Jewish Temple will once again stand at that location. It is this Temple which will be usurped by the so-called "man of evil", and set up as a place in which he himself is to be worshiped as God. This event appears to take place in the middle up a time period Christians refer to as "the tribulation", a seven-year period during which many prophecies will be fulfilled. When these "seven years" begin, the Jewish Temple will be standing. In the middle of the seven years, several changes are foretold, one of which is the "abomination that brings desolation", which will stand from that time until the end of the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years (about 1290 days).

As I have stated in other discussions, once a prophecy is made only three possibilities remain:

A) the prophecy has been fulfilled

B) the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but will be

C) the prophecy is false.

As I interpret this prophecy, only B and C remain.
 
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  • #12
Another God
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oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.
 
  • #13
Originally posted by Another God
oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.

You missed when I asked you about that?
 
  • #14
LURCH
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Originally posted by Another God
oh wow.. I only just realised that it said 1290 DAYS.

HAHAHAHA....hmmmm..that changes that completely doesn't it?

Thanks Lurch.

Not such a big mistake. As I mentioned earlier, there is a danger in enterpreting Bible prophecy too litterally. So, taking the word "day" to mean year could actually be a correct approach. The word "day" could mean "year", "generation" or simply,"time-period". This, BTW, is supported wihtin the text itself, so you don't have to believe in prophecy fullfillment to apply it. For example, the "seven years" to which I reffered earlier is elsewhere called the "day of Abraham's distress" or "...Abraham's trouble".

That's not so different from modern usage, I suppose. When somebody says, "back in my day..." you don't start wondering "which day was yours? Was it a weekday or a Saturday..." or stuff like that. I think that the "days" reffered to in this passage are litteral, but they might not be.
 
  • #15
radagast
484
1
Lurch and AG,
The problem of using this type of prophecy to prove anything has one flaw. Since you are not speaking of exact literal interpretations (at least according to Lurch), then interpretation is very important. The interpretations need to be a commonly accepted meanings, accepted by most biblical scholars, otherwise you may be falling into the trap of interpreting the bible to fit today's known facts. Something, I feel, happens all to often with Nostradamus's writings.
 
  • #16
LURCH
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Originally posted by radagast
Lurch and AG,
The problem of using this type of prophecy to prove anything has one flaw. Since you are not speaking of exact literal interpretations (at least according to Lurch), then interpretation is very important. The interpretations need to be a commonly accepted meanings, accepted by most biblical scholars, otherwise you may be falling into the trap of interpreting the bible to fit today's known facts.

True, it does make it hard to use prophecy to "predict" the future in any detail. The meanings of many prophecies become clear only after the fact. But the interpretation I have mentioned regardiong this prophecy is widely held, though not universally, and have at least some rationale to back them up. For example, the reason I and many others take the "1290 days" to be literal is because an event fitting the same description is said to occur in the middle of the "seven years". Elsewhere, this "abomination" is said to go on for "a time, times, and a half a time" (that's 1T + at least 2T + 1/2T) suggesting, if not demanding, 3 1/2 T. Taken in the context of other statements that it would be "1290 days", or "at the midpoint of the seven years", it does not seem too much of the stretch to say that the value of T is one year.

Something, I feel, happens all to often with Nostradamus's writings.

Whole different kettle fish; the writings of Nostradamus are re-written to fit today's known facts. I think we can all agree that that is not being done with the Bible. Or is there still some question as to the Bible "changing its story" over time?
 
  • #17
Another God
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I just want to put everyones fears to rest once again: I do not intend to let any 'Fitting of the facts to the event' through in this thread. I want solid evidence from both sides to justify any interpretations, not just fitting the possible interpretations with events.

OK? So don't suggest anymore that this could be a problem, because it isn't going to happen. not on my watch.

Now, I have spoken to DW, and she says that days is to be interpretted years (I laughed at her) ...because... In the old days any long period of time was expressed as days even though they meant years.... I expressed my dislike of this, but she claimed that this is not a phenomenon only present in the bible, but has actually been used in Astronomy all throughout history, even into modern times and is still used.

Does anyone know of the term 'Days' being used to express years? A solid reference of example would be nice.
Summary
OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'
We need to verify that Days can realistically be interpretted to = Years.
And I would like some reason to suspect that this prophecy even refers to the Dome Of The Rock. (this depends on how good the 'Daily Sacrifice' point is. If there is one location definitively known as 'The Daily Sacrifice' throughout the bible, and it happens to be the precise place the Dome was built, then i think that that is good enough for me.)

If all these factors came together, I would be convinced for sure. Everyone happy with that?
 
  • #18
FZ+
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Then, by claiming that there is an equal (or greater) probability that days in fact means... days, I resubmit this as a false prophecy.
 
  • #19
Iacchus32
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A Day for Each Year

Originally posted by Another God
I just want to put everyones fears to rest once again: I do not intend to let any 'Fitting of the facts to the event' through in this thread. I want solid evidence from both sides to justify any interpretations, not just fitting the possible interpretations with events.

OK? So don't suggest anymore that this could be a problem, because it isn't going to happen. not on my watch.

Now, I have spoken to DW, and she says that days is to be interpretted years (I laughed at her) ...because... In the old days any long period of time was expressed as days even though they meant years.... I expressed my dislike of this, but she claimed that this is not a phenomenon only present in the bible, but has actually been used in Astronomy all throughout history, even into modern times and is still used.

Does anyone know of the term 'Days' being used to express years? A solid reference of example would be nice.
Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem: And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about. Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it. And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege. (Ezekiel 4:1-8).
 
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  • #20
radagast
484
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Post moved because it was felt to stray from the narrow focus of this thread.
 
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  • #21
Dark Wing
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Originally posted by Another God
To start this battle off, I am presenting a prophecy which is claimed to be accurate and modern on behalf of Dark Wing. I don't know much about this myself but here it is:

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

(Full Chapter )

Now, the daily sacrifice is supposed to be a well recognised christian site, a place where daily sacrifices took place all throughout the old testament. I don't know of this place, but I hope someone will be able to fill this gap in for me.

The fullfillment of the prophecy is supposed to be when the Muslims built the 'Dome of the Rock'(?) ontop of this holy place. The Muslim shrine being called in the prophecy the 'Abomination that maketh desolation'

That is the prophecy of which I am proposing to be foretold, and accurately fulfilled on behalf of Dark Wing.

The consequence of this prophecy, interestingly enough, is that if it is true, then we also know that the 'End of Days' will be 1290 after that (with only the blessed living to see 1335 after this abomination event...)


Ok, well, now we have started this, let me straighten a few facts up.

1. the daily sacrifice was not a site. it was a ritual done in the temple, an animal sacrifice to God. it was done by the high priests etc. the sacrifice was taken away when the Babylonians came down and took them back to babylon. the impliments used for the sacrifice were confiscated and the only people who were alowed to / knew how to make new ones were killed. This was to supress the religion of the jews in order to intergrate them into babylonian society. (anyone who has read any of Daniel knows that this did not work, but that is beside the point).

So from the time that this happened (a date for a future post, as i am here without my notes, unaware that i was to post all of this tonight, i thought i had a little more time to prepare for this so called "battle"), it was predicted that 1290 days an abomination that causes desolation would be set up. Now, please tell me what would be a bigger abomination than to have the musilims set up thier own temple up on the temple site of solomon?

Now for the really interesting bit. the "12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." bit lands on the year 2025 (from memory, might be 2024, let me check my notes on that). this refers to the 'end of days' time period, and it is not clear what this date means. From other writings dealing with this period, that date, on the time line (yes, we have a time line writtern out, and things are getting crossed off, not added or changed, might i add to suit what is actually happening in world politics) it could mean the begining of the 7 year war, the end of the 7 year war, or the begining of the 3 year period that leads to the 7 year war. (this 3 year period is when the jews have basicly gone into hiding, till they are called back and re-take jeruselem). After this a huge war will break out, and all kinds of wierd stuff is going to happen, resulting in the Muslims being the 1st to join sides with the Jews as they go to take over the world, basicly.

The thing to understand about the 1290 days phrophecy is that it is at the end of a 3 chapter description of what is going to happen from the fall of the babylonian empire up till the end of days. it starts half way through Daniel. It names countires and people, and i will be more than happy to give you all the quotes once i have my notes.
 
  • #22
kat
39
0
Originally posted by Another God

OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'
We need to verify that Days can realistically be interpretted to = Years.
And I would like some reason to suspect that this prophecy even refers to the Dome Of The Rock. (this depends on how good the 'Daily Sacrifice' point is. If there is one location definitively known as 'The Daily Sacrifice' throughout the bible, and it happens to be the precise place the Dome was built, then i think that that is good enough for me.)

Well, as I pointed out...the western wall (or wailing wall) would fit, this is where daily sacrficial prayers are made 3 times a day..to this day, except for the 2 decades of jordanian occupation. Although, there are jews who believe the third temple needs to be rebuilt and the blood sacrifices resumed..this involves the purification of the temple with the red heiffer etc. Some researchers believe that the actual spot that the holiest of holy's or the inner sanctuary existed was slightly to the left of the actual dome of the rock.
The wailing wall is known to be the outside wall of the temple compound. If we look at KJV Daniel 9:27 which refers to the abomination in associate to the temple site "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Overspreading is translated from the word "kanaph" which refers to a wing, edge, border etc. Why the KJV translated this to overspreading I don't know, unless they understood it a spreading of wings,as in a bird. It's later used correctly in the "four corners of the earth".
The hebrew interlinear english reference section translates it as "corner" Daniel 9:27 and the NIV translates it as wing (wing of a building not wing of a bird).
There were 4 sections to the temple, they were the north, east, west and south. One section of the outer wall to the compound is still standing, that is the "wailing" or "western" wall that I mentioned previously. In Daniel 8:11 he does not mention the trampling of the temple, instead he uses the term " "the place of His sanctuary was cast down."
In Daniel 9:26 it tells of the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD, followed by verse 27 which speaks of the Abominations being set up on the "edge". Notice how there is nothing said about the reconstruction of the building between its destruction and the Abominations.
 
  • #23
Another God
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READ THIS POST
This thread IS NOT for the discussion of Prophecies in general. It IS NOT for various ramblings, for tid bits of speculation, or any other insights that have nothing to do with the prophecy at hand.

This thread is intented to take a critical, in depth look at one selected Biblical prophecy at a time, and make a group decision as to whether there is any reasonable claim of accurate fulfillment of that prophecy. Without bias. And that is all.

No more speculation! Just claims about what the prophecy in question means with evidence to back up the claims, followed by on topic discussion about the credibility of the claim/evidence.
 
  • #24
kat
39
0
Originally posted by Another God
READ THIS POST
This thread IS NOT for the discussion of Prophecies in general. It IS NOT for various ramblings, for tid bits of speculation, or any other insights that have nothing to do with the prophecy at hand.

This thread is intented to take a critical, in depth look at one selected Biblical prophecy at a time, and make a group decision as to whether there is any reasonable claim of accurate fulfillment of that prophecy. Without bias. And that is all.

No more speculation! Just claims about what the prophecy in question means with evidence to back up the claims, followed by on topic discussion about the credibility of the claim/evidence.


Are you referring to my post?
Your statement " OK, so far, we still need to verify that the place the Dome of the Rock was built on = 'The Daily Sacrifice'"

The western wall, which, as far as the modern Jews are concerned, is the Jewish sanctuary. If you don't "buy" this then I urge you to be the one to convince a religious Jew that the ha-kotel ha-ma'aravi or western wall, as in THE western wall of the temple is not their sanctuary, or that the prayers and petitions offered on its patio (except for the 2 decades of jordanian occupation) are not THE "Daily sacrifices and offerings" to God mentioned.
 
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  • #25
Laser Eyes
73
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You picked a hard one to start with AG. Are you sure you want to continue with this one?
 
  • #26
FZ+
1,599
3
Genesis 26:4
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Let's see.. to cover this by 2025 and make it in time for doomsday, the Jews have to give birth to (7 * 10^22)/22 = 3*10^21 children per year. I'd say the probability of this is low. Even if we count the sons of Jacob as inclusive of christians, we still don't account for such long numbers, or all countries.
 
  • #27
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by FZ+
Let's see.. to cover this by 2025 and make it in time for doomsday, the Jews have to give birth to (7 * 10^22)/22 = 3*10^21 children per year. I'd say the probability of this is low. Even if we count the sons of Jacob as inclusive of christians, we still don't account for such long numbers, or all countries.
I think this is merely figurative for "inumerable," and wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Aside from that, what does it have to do with the prophecy at hand?
 
  • #28
FZ+
1,599
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Just fulfilling the challenge of naming a false prophecy to each supposedly real one.

But if you look at this one as figurative, then what justifies the interpretation you make of the other so-called "prophecies"?
 
  • #29
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by FZ+
Just fulfilling the challenge of naming a false prophecy to each supposedly real one.

But if you look at this one as figurative, then what justifies the interpretation you make of the other so-called "prophecies"?
Did you know that the number of your posts, 1260, also signifies a time, a times and a half a time, or three-and-a-half years? And is also a significant number listed in Revelation 11, 12 and possibly 13, in conjucntion with the number 42, which is also three-and-a-half years? (42 x 30 = 1260). Just thought you might like to know. :wink:

Actually the thing about this particular prophesy is that there is nothing to compare the number of stars to, except what is innumerable, unless of course it had things like days and numbers associated with it like the prophecy above (which could then be interpreted in different ways).

So, did they actually come to a conclusion here? It seems like they were getting close, but I was having a hard time following the whole thing.


P.S. I checked your last post (#1260), which was 'Smart' doll can see and read. It's still interesting nonetheless.
 
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  • #30
megashawn
Science Advisor
443
0
Wow, thats so weird. I just speant $12.60 at lunch.


(this 3 year period is when the jews have basicly gone into hiding, till they are called back and re-take jeruselem). After this a huge war will break out, and all kinds of wierd stuff is going to happen, resulting in the Muslims being the 1st to join sides with the Jews as they go to take over the world, basicly.

I may be confused, but is this something that is supposed to happen? You do of course know there is no way that would happen, don't you?

I mean, am I mistaken here? Is it true that if the middle east combined forces, they actually could take over the world?
 
  • #31
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Did anyone mention that the Dome of the Rock was built over the rock where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac? Would that have anything to do with the "daily sacrifice?"

http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/domerock.htm
 
  • #32
Another God
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
987
4
No Kat, i was refering to posts which are the dead opposite of your posts. You seem to be the only person actually trying to help out on this thread so far, which is quite frustrating from my point of view. I wish I had mentor powers just for this thread....

Did you know that the number of your posts, 1260,
Iachus, please delete this post. No one cares, and it is not on topic.

Lasare Eyes, I believe this is no harder than any other prophecy in the Bible, and DW assures me that there is nothing hard about this one. People are just making it seem harder than it needs to be. And FZ+ as much as I appreciate your on topic thoughts, don't worry about figurative words or meanings etc, just concentrate on what is said in the quote, and we will figure out what it ACTUALLY means. Try helping the process rather than standing on the sideline predicting our doom.

Did anyone mention that the Dome of the Rock was built over the rock where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac?
DW tells me that I have to get it out of your heads that the daily sacrifice refers to a place. It actually refers to the fact that the Jews had their ability to make a daily sacrifice taken away from them. So the phrase is a time thing, not a place thing.


SOOOOO.....
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etc

Secondly: We are in a place called Physics Forums, surely someone here deals in astronomy and the history of astronomy. Perhaps one of these people knows about people expressing years as days many many years ago? DW assures me that in the old days they used to do this (ie: Not just in the Bible.) So I seek proof.

Please try to help out this time, rather than just throwing useless comments around??? please?
 
  • #33
kat
39
0
Originally posted by Another God

DW tells me that I have to get it out of your heads that the daily sacrifice refers to a place. It actually refers to the fact that the Jews had their ability to make a daily sacrifice taken away from them. So the phrase is a time thing, not a place thing.
I think she is probably referring to Jesus having been crucified as the end of the need for sacrifice, but then that would mean the Christians had their ability to make daily sacrifice taken away, not the Jews as the Jews still make their daily sacrifices to this very day (as I pointed out)


SOOOOO.....
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etc
As I mentioned above, DW is probably suggesting this is a referral to Christ by his sacrifice having taken away the sacrifices and ceremonies of the Law. Many believe this is yet to happen, and it refers to the present day Israel and the Western Wall.

Secondly: We are in a place called Physics Forums, surely someone here deals in astronomy and the history of astronomy. Perhaps one of these people knows about people expressing years as days many many years ago? DW assures me that in the old days they used to do this (ie: Not just in the Bible.) So I seek proof.
Well..I believe that there are times when day may mean year but in these cases I think we would see yowm (day) in the singular with an attached infinitive used to indicate an extended period of time. I don't believe this is the case in this instance. At any rate if it is meant to be a year or an extended period of time you should be able to tell from the context. Odd that earlier in the same chapter they would express year as "time" (12:7 that it shall be for a time, times, and an half) and then Day as year just a few verses later. It doesn't seem to fit IMO.
 
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  • #34
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by Another God
Does anyone have information about when, in history, the Jews have had all of their sacrifice capabilites taken away from them? By invasion, by slavery, by whatever. How often does this happen? Has it happened at all? etc
You asked for a specific time frame for when the daily sacrifice was taken away? Then this seems to be referring to that here. And yet, I'm not sure it's even the same prophecy? However, you might be intrigued to find out what I've discovered below ... and all I can say is wow!

3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Daniel 8:3-14).
Doesn't this kind of sound like the rise of Greece (the he goat) during the 6th century BC? Who, after the Jews were released and allowed to return to their homeland (beginning in 538 BC), got into a scuffle with Persia (i.e., the ram) and eventually conquered them in 479 BC (have a chapter in my book named after that number by the way) before entering and Hellenizing the Holy Land via the conquests of Alexander?

Whereas when you think about it -- "the Jews" -- who, didn't actually exist as a people until after The Captivity, have been under the dominion of someone else ever since their release. So in this respect they haven't been allowed to worship "their God" in the way that they deem fit, in which case you could say their daily sacrifice was taken away.

And, since the Jews were dispersed after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, you could say this condition has existed since just prior to their release from Babylon, let's come up with a date say, 543 BC -- which, if we extend by 2,300 years (remember the day for a year thing?), we come up with the year 1757 BC. And guess what? This is the very year that the Last Judgment -- as foretold in the book of Revelation -- was supposed to occur, and a "New Heaven and Earth" were formed (more so in the spiritual world), hence the establishment of the "New Church." And so it is the "Christian Era," which has existed since 543 BC, i.e., under the dominion of someone else (and remember, Jesus was a Jew), has now come to a close, and the Jews are no longer under its dominion.

All of which has been thoroughly detailed through the works of Emanuel Swedenborg, the gifted Swedish scientist, theologian and, mystic. If you refer to the first two chapters of my book -- yes, here we are talking about my book again -- I go into further detail about it. While it also happens to be the same period that I speak about on my Spiritual Timeline thread. How strange? Hmm ... Maybe I can get you to take a look at it afterall? Now wouldn't that be something!


Chapter 1 | Chapter 2 | Chapter 3 | Chapter 5


EDIT: Added numbers and highlights to scripture.
 
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  • #35
Another God
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
987
4
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Doesn't this kind of sound like the rise of Greece (the he goat) during the 6th century BC?

Well, it does say this in the next few lines you know:
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

But I will look up the dates of this prophecy, and see what can be taken from the fact that it says the daily sacrifice was taken away.


Whereas when you think about it -- "the Jews" -- who, didn't actually exist as a people until after The Captivity, have been under the dominion of someone else ever since their release. So in this respect they haven't been allowed to worship "their God" in the way that they deem fit, in which case you could say their daily sacrifice was taken away.
 
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