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The big question: GOD

  1. Dec 12, 2003 #1
    So at the risk of being redundant and fanning a flame that has burned since ever, I ask you this: Is the or is ther not a higher power? Once replies are posted, I will express my views.
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 12, 2003 #2

    I think that God... is a word with three letters.

    Am I right? Is that a truth... Yeah... I think it is.
  4. Dec 13, 2003 #3
    good question. What do you believe?
  5. Dec 13, 2003 #4
    Haha that is brilliant.

    As to my beliefs, I personally do not believe in any sort of higher power. though some say that the universe could not exist without an uncaused first cause, I believe that there are no uncaused events, just unknown events. And please, TheDream, answer my question with intelligence next time. Though it be amusing, I am interested to hear everyone's opinion.
  6. Dec 13, 2003 #5
    God, fundamentally a belief system that Humans have seeking divine or higher order in an external source often fantasized about having great power. Possibly a need to replace the parental role after adulthood in an external concept of a heavenly father.

    If I were to believe in God. God to me would have to be this.

    The Universe as a whole, and all its parts.

    Does this mean it has to be a loving god, a divine higher power? No. If God is the Universe, then God is reality and the miracle that reality is.

    I’m not saying that the Universe has a universal Mind, but I see a Universe that is connected to every aspect of which it embodies. And that is what I see as God.

    God to me is still a three letter word, and its meaning to other humans, who share other cultural beliefs and religions changes from mind to mind.

    The Universe however, is one thing I can truly relate too as one of its parts.

    One thing I am sure we can all agree on is:

    Reality exists, and it’s real. Not only is it real, it’s amazing in every detail.

    I enjoy trying to understand the Universe with my limited mind as the Universe is beyond all my wildest dreams.
  7. Dec 13, 2003 #6
    Re: The big question: GOD

    Actually it isn't so much a matter of explaining what it is, as it's experiencing what it is. In which case all the theories and explanations in the world do little justice to the actual experience itself -- which, is the only way a person can really tell.

    In which case we need to ask ourselves, "Is there a God experience," and how do we go about attaining it?
  8. Dec 13, 2003 #7
    I believe god exists as the question you just asked. I believe god is the question that spawned all other questions. I believe god is "why?". If you believe what I believe then you will understand that god works for just about anything. The clues that exist in our universe exist as fuel to power the question "why?".

    It ammuses me to think that I can get all poetical when I try to think about god and explain who/what it is.
  9. Dec 16, 2003 #8
    It is impossible to have a completely good and omnipotent being.

    Omnipotent means allpowerful.

    To be allpowerful you must have total control over everything.

    Your own creation/birth is a thing- therefore you cannot have been created/borne (since that could only have happened without your consent first).

    Therefore you are eternal.

    Nothing else can be eternal, because if it was it would have to have existed as long as you existed (therefore without your consent).

    It is impossible to build a pool table, balls, and the rules for pool (but leave out the holes) and begin to play and get a ball in a hole.

    Likewise it is impossible to create any concepts and laws dealing with that type of concept (EG 1 and 2 and addition) and come out with a concept not created independently.

    Evil, pain, etc are concepts. They are not natural consequences of good and pleasure, they had to be created independently.

    You created evil, pain, etc.

    You created the reason for creating them.

    Therefore you needlessly created bad things.

    Therefore you are not good.

    Therefore IF you are omnipotent THEN you are not purely good.
    So either god(s) (if he/she/they exist(s)) cannot be omnipotent and purely good.
  10. Dec 16, 2003 #9
    If u exist why cant GOD exist. Have u ever wondered why there is living beings. Let us first question Which is visible rather than invisible. GOD is in everyone ,u have to realise them. I u know deeply that u exist than GOD do exists
  11. Dec 16, 2003 #10

    Accept God as Supreme


    I once invited the Nobel prize-winning scientist C V Raman to preside over a function on the occasion of Sri Krishna Janmashtami at Sri Gaudiya Math, Bagh Bazar, Calcutta . The scientist declined the invitation on the ground that Krishna was fictitious and he had got no intention of wasting valuable time on such functions.

    Dr Raman said that if I could reveal Krishna to him, he would go to attend the function, as he did not believe in something that could not be comprehended by observation and experiment. Behind the northern portion of his laboratory was North Calcutta . I asked him: “I am unable to see anything beyond this wall. If I say there is nothing outside this wall, will it be correct?” Dr Raman said, “I can see through my instruments.”

    When I pointed out that there is a limit to the power of instruments for you can see only as far as your instruments allow you to see, Dr Raman said: “I will not give my attention to anything that is not within my sense-experience. Can you show me your God?” I said: “If your students say to you, they will study your scientific findings only if you make them realised first, then what would you say?” Dr Raman said, “No, they are to take my process through which I have realised the truth.” I said, “If this is true for you and your scientific knowledge, can the seers of ancient India not say exactly the same thing? Why not follow their process and see whether you experience God’s existence or not.”

  12. Dec 16, 2003 #11
    The question, for many of us, isn't if GOD could exist, but is there sufficient reason to accept that GOD or GODs do exist.

    There are the religious who've had spiritual experiences, which allows them some evidence to base such an acceptance. (Evidential)

    There are those that accept it because of their trust of those who told them GOD existed. (Authority)

    There are those that accept it, because to reject that acceptance would endanger their social relationships [i.e. put them at odds with members of their family and community]. (Social)

    And there are those who do not accept GOD's existence, simply because they've seen no evidence to accept that existence as actual. (Lack of the Evidential)
  13. Dec 16, 2003 #12
    is that suppose to be a proof? with that kind of proof you can say anything... giant pink turtles who move the planets, invisible blue dragons under your bed, you name it....
    you'll have to do beter than this to show the posibillity that God exists
  14. Dec 16, 2003 #13
    I gave u proofs i believe u guys haven't gone through the excerpts

    Okay i refine some statements from excerpts
    You just ans.
    Can normal eye visualize whats inside your body(i.e. intenstine etc...)

    I would definitely say u better first read all the excerpts and try to consider urself as C.V.Raman in excerpts and do think seriously

    Krishna is considered to be incarnation of GOD here in India
  15. Dec 16, 2003 #14
  16. Dec 21, 2003 #15
    By definition I am agnostic, meaning I accept that I do not know. Though seeing as I consider the idea of god to be lunacy, though not impossible. You can consider me an atheist.
  17. Dec 21, 2003 #16
    I am your typical Evil Atheist...

    The big answer: No.
  18. Dec 21, 2003 #17
    There are some uncaused events, the one that immediately comes to mind is radioactive decay.
  19. Dec 21, 2003 #18
    There are a few prerequisites for things to exist:

    They have to be classified as either
    1. Made of matter
    2. A physical property of matter

    Things which exist cannot exist or function beyond the scope of "Natural Law" (for lack of better terminology).

    Your original question "If you exist, why cant god(s) exist", first the two are non-analogous. Second, the existence of myself in no way implies the existence of a deity. Third, I dont deny the existence of god(s) because I can see him, I deny the existence of god(s) for the same reason I deny the existence of pixies, faries, leprechauns, elves, ghosts, griffons, perpetual motion machines, psychics, dowsing, etc. etc. etc. etc. Might as well say "Since you exist, you must also accept that unicorns exist". The logic just doesnt hold up to any standards of acceptable reasoning.
  20. Dec 21, 2003 #19

    It would be quite wrong to assume skeptics disbelieve in the existence of god(s) because they cant see him.

    If there is no evidence that a certain thing exists, we can assume that it exists for the purposes of hypothesis and experimentation (such as Quark Theory), but if repeated experimentation and/or observation fails to show evidence that the thing exists, we can be fairly certain that it just ain't there.

    One must be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that because there is no evidence that something does not exist, that it might exist.

    If you accept one (or more) god(s), what reason would you have to reject all other possible gods (and those yet to be concieved).

    A personal Philosophy of mine on the subject of belief in god(s):
    "By accepting the existence of one god when you dont accept the others, you'd be making it very hard for me not call you a hypocrite."
  21. Dec 21, 2003 #20
    There is only sun in the sky which, for all intents and purposes, represents the one God. However, just as the sun affects each and everyone of us a little differently (the example fits better with the plant and animal kingdom), then it could be said we each have our own unique interpretation of the sun, in which case you can have as many gods as you like.

    The acceptance of Yahweh for example, who states in the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no gods before me," pretty much alludes to the same idea.

    "A rose by any other name is but a rose?"
  22. Dec 22, 2003 #21
    god within the traditional definition is a fairee tale.

    it is interesting that with each advance of science, we get closer to being more philosophical.

    science is proving that energy is the essence of the universe. why can't god be the energy gestalt (pantheism)? THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE SUM OF IT'S PARTS!

    mix in a little freewill and we have energy running throught out the universe creating awareness (for god as well as self?). with awareness we can learn to manipulate the energy into creating new universes. wow, the universe is infinite and expanding.
  23. Dec 23, 2003 #22
    Unfortunately, very few people would find your reasoning entirely consistant.

    Is your god the Christian God?

    Is your god a Greek God?

    Those are two very opposing figures, and unfortunately the way the two gods are defined does not allow them to be synonymous with one another. The Christian God and Greek Gods are inherently mutually exclusive.

    And if all gods are essentially parts of one Supreme God, why is it the Christian God, and not say a seperate hypothetical God.

    Which of these do you best associate yourself with:

    Deism - The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

    Theist - Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

    Pantheist - Someone who believes that God and the universe are the same (i.e. God is Everything)

    Panentheist - Someone who believes Everything is God (yes, Pantheism and Panentheism are different from one another, can read about it at http://websyte.com/alan/pan.htm.)

    Atheist - One who lacks belief in god(s)

    None of these are mutually inclusive, so those roses by other names will in fact be different flowers (look at me, I'm getting all metaphorical... WOOHOO!). To reiterate myself:

    If you accept one (or more) god(s), what reason would you have to reject all other possible conceptions (that word was added) gods (and those yet to be concieved).
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
  24. Dec 23, 2003 #23
    Man created god in his own image. That being said...

    I suppose I am an agnostic. I don't know if god exists. I guess I would like to see evidence of God's existence. If evidence is all around me then I just don't see it for what it is. I certainly don't subscribe to any western religions although I am American. I consider myself to be scientifically minded. I have a degree in electronics engineering and I study physics as a hobby. I also practice amateur astronomy. I do think about God and enjoy discussing philosophy although I know next to nothing about formal philosophical schools of thought. I keep these things separate from science, however. I have recently discovered that my studies in science has had a deep impact on how I think about god and philosophy of the universe in general. In hind sight, this is not surprising. Concepts of symmetry in physical laws, conservation of energy, broken symmetry, mass/energy, matter/anti-matter, relativity/invariance, 0/infinity, the list goes on...When I contemplate god and the universe philosophically, my thoughts tend to parallel ideas which are fundamental to certain eastern religions; Taoism and Zen Buddhism for example. Not that I'm an enlightened guru. Far from it. I don't practice any particular religion.

    Anyway, If I'm going to believe in god, I guess this is what I will believe:

    At some point in the past, not that there was a past for time did not exist, there was perfect symmetry. Everything was the same everywhere wherever that was or wasn't. There was nothing to differentiate one point from another, one time from another, or one thing from another. There was nothing, yet something. But that something couldn't be defined due to the pure symmetry. This nothing/something became restless with being nothing nowhere. Yet not exactly restless as we conceive it. The perfect symmetry began to break down. Things began to move as points in time and space began to appear. Gradually, awareness become more evolved as the universe strove to grow out of it's restless state. It began to examine itself more closely as the asymmetries became more abundant. The universe became truly alive. It began to contemplate its existence. Perhaps someday it will fall back asleep.

    I believe God is the Universe or the Universe is God and we all are a part of its evolving consciousness, if I believe anything. :smile: I guess that is pantheism.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
  25. Dec 24, 2003 #24
    Actually your preponderance to knit-pick suggests to me that you don't have the ability to stand back and take a look at the overall picture. Which is to say, you can't seperate the forest from the trees. This by the way, is what I think the difference is between the "scientific approach" and that which is more "holistically based." :wink:
  26. Dec 24, 2003 #25
    Well, granted you are under no obligation to answer my questions, and I do respect that.

    I do see things as an overall picture (the totality of all things which exist objectively make up reality), I could reasonably argue that you would be unable to differenciate between the forest and the trees if you were not a Panentheist, but I wouldnt go that route (no need to nit-pick that much).

    However, I would like to know what it is that makes what I see so different than what you see. What is it that you have discovered that you know there exists a god?
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