The Canadian college shootings

[J77]

Two threads this week involving guns and then this happens: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5343714.stm

I'm definitely in the party of making guns accessible to people increases the chances of something like this happening.

A nutter without a gun is safe.

A nutter who can walk into a store and buy a gun isn't.

PF links: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131578 and https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=131334

 

[J77]

I thought there would be tonnes of postings on this from you US and Canadian guys - particularly as it happened in an educational institution.

Something else which I thought would spark more discussion in the news - again, I haven't heard much in the world news - is that he seems to have got some inspiration for killing from video games: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5346110.stm

 

[Astronuc]

I don't think there is much else to say.

The individual (gunman) seemed to be mentally ill and alienated. Somehow he decided to start shooting people, but since he committed suicide, we are only left to speculate as to the motive.

This can happen anywhere, and does periodically occur. It has happened periodically in the US, even in the local area. Access to guns certainly increases the probability that someone with mental illness could act out in society and kill people. That seems a price that some societies are willing to accept. :uhh:

 

[Anttech]

yeh but without the guns how can we defend ourselfs from people with mental illnesses, especially violent ones, with guns?

/sarcasim

 

[JasonRox]

If there was no guns, we wouldn't have to worry about people with mental illnesses with guns.

 

[JasonRox]

yeh but with the guns how can we defend ourselfs from people with mental illnesses, especially violent ones, without guns?

/sarcasim

Say what?!

Just playing. :)

 

[chroot]

If there was no guns, we wouldn't have to worry about people with mental illnesses with guns.

I can't argue with that, but, since guns have been invented and are actually manufactured in large quantities, how do you propose we get rid of all the guns?

- Warren

 

[scorpa]

I'm sure even without guns they would find another way to make "their point".

 

[JasonRox]

I can't argue with that, but, since guns have been invented and are actually manufactured in large quantities, how do you propose we get rid of all the guns?

- Warren

I never said I had a proposition.

 

[chroot]

You're right, scorpa. You can kill people pretty effectively with thrown kitchen knives, chlorine gas made from bleach and vinegar, you name it.

- Warren

 

[Evo]

It's not hard for someone that is determined to get a gun to get hold of one illegally. Where the banning of guns would stop most normal people from getting a gun, it more than likely wouldn't stop a "nutter" as you call them.

 

[scorpa]

You're right, scorpa. You can kill people pretty effectively with thrown kitchen knives, chlorine gas made from bleach and vinegar, you name it.

- Warren

Yes that is what I am getting at. It's not the gun that gets up by itself and decides to go on a rampage...it's the idiot using it. If guns were banned it would be just as easy for them to poison (but that's not as flashy), make a bomb, throw knives...ect. Yes guns are dangerous in the wrong hands but unfortunately so are a lot of things.

 

[Anttech]

It's not hard for someone that is determined to get a gun to get hold of one illegally. Where the banning of guns would stop most normal people from getting a gun, it more than likely wouldn't stop a "nutter" as you call them.

So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?

 

[Evo]

So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?

How many people own guns is not an issue, it's the intent of the individual user. I don't need to worry about the overwhelming majority of gun owners, only the "few determined nutters" and that's so rare, I'm more likely to die from slipping in my shower, but I'm not going to call for a ban on showers. I can only think of one person that I personally know that owns a gun, and it's an antique shotgun he inherited. Do you think that every American buys guns just because we can?

 

[Anttech]

It was totally hypothetical question and nothing to do with America. I just wanted to know what your oppinion was. I have heard some people argue that it would be safer, I was wondering if that applied to you.

However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.

 

[Evo]

However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.

Someone intent on commiting violence would just use another means. We're talking about someone obviously disturbed. People don't become violent just because they own a gun.

 

[Cyrus]

So would you say the world would be safer if most people had guns, or just a few dettermined nutters?

Oh, give me a break. Guns do not make the world less safe, violent people do. Is that so hard to grasp?

A gun is a tool that can be used for good, or can be used for evil.

So I guess before the advent of the gun crime was nonexistant, right?

We all own knives, do we go around slashing at people? No, because it too is a tool that can be used for good or bad.

 

[scorpa]

However since you brought it up, I would say that it is a matter of how many people owe guns, the less who do the less chance that someone is going to get shot, by someone with a gun.

Where I come from I don't know anyone who does not own a gun, in fact I would imagine the average number of guns in each household would be about 5...some a few less but many a lot more (and i mean alot!) and no one has ever been shot, hurt, killed, or maimed in anyway. People are careful and bad things don't happen, it's when some psychopathic nutjob gets ahold of them that things become problematic, but like was mentioned multiple times before in this thread if they did not have guns they would find something else to get the job done. Haha got to love that old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

 

[selfAdjoint]

Police just arrested some teens in Green Bay, Wisconsin for plotting to attack their high school a la Columbine. They were planning to shoot people they didn't like, but their main plan was to set off bombs near the rest rooms.

As we see from the daily news from Iraq, bombs can be more effective than guns if all you want to do is kill people.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Haha got to love that old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Actually, bullets kill people.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[scorpa]

Actually, bullets kill people.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Haha you got me there! :tongue:

 

[JasonRox]

Guns don't make the world less safe... so um... why do we have them?

In Canada, almost no one has guns. They aren't common like they are in the US. It's not going to stay that way because of our neighbours who won't let them go. Who are you defending yourself from that require a gun? Umm... the British left a lllllooooonnnnnngggggg time ago.

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah, but George Bush replaced the british!

We have guns because we can, and its our right to. You take away my rights, and I'll shoot you. That's why we have the right to own guns.

Why have them? Skeets, hunting, law enforcement, personal protection...to name a few. Shooting is a sport you know, ever watch the olympics?

Our choice of guns is ours, not Canadas, nor the Uk's.

 

[ek]

In order to analyze the gun issue, just think of the boundary conditions.

If no one had a gun, would the world be a safer place? If every person had a gun, would the world be a safer place?

Perhaps I'm a left wing extremist, but I think guns should be illegal.

Maybe I'm naive, but where I live I do not know one person/family with a gun. And if I found out one of my friends or their parents kept a gun/guns, I would automatically think less of them.

It's funny, I was watching this PBS special on blogs influencing politics in the US, and the narrator said something along the lines of "the sterotypical blogger is a young, radical left winger". I burst out laughing because I'm a blogger and that stereotype IS me.

 

[JasonRox]

Why have them? Skeets, hunting, law enforcement, personal protection...to name a few. Shooting is a sport you know, ever watch the olympics?

You missed one. Shooting people when you're mad because we can.

 

[Cyrus]

Yeah, ok Jason. Because we couldn't just use a knife or blunt object. Okay...

http://www.guncite.com/gcgvsupp.html

The gun must have made him do it...

 

[Mozart]

A little bit off the debate, but I am a student of Dawson College and I felt like sharing my experience. It was one of the scarier moments of my life to know someone was on a shooting rampage and at any moment I could have found myself face to face with a killer while running out of the school. Fortunately I made it out safely, but unfortunately the only casualty happened to be someone I know...out of 10 000 people. I mean it's equaly unfortunate to lose anyone, but it's a different experience when you knew the person.

What I know about this Kimveer Gill from numerous news-castings is that he obtained all of his guns legally. Previously Being in the military probably facilitated his obtainment of rifles, pistols, and shotguns.

 

[JasonRox]

Yeah, ok Jason. Because we couldn't just use a knife or blunt object. Okay...

http://www.guncite.com/gcgvsupp.html

You can hunt with a knife, etc...

 

[Cyrus]

What are you even talking about? Use a knife to hunt...does that even sound reasonable when you say it outloud?

However taking the long view it appears that the gun supply does not have a significant impact on total homicides or suicides. (Since 1945 the handgun per capita rate has risen by over 350% and over 260% for all firearms.)

So, what was that you were saying?...

 

[Cyrus]

This entire notion of taking away guns to make the world safe is lunacy.

A culture of violence, which we have in America, is to blame. We have the highest crime rate in the entire world. NOT by guns, but OVERALL. THAT is the problem. So enough of this 'take away guns, take away guns' nonsense..:uhh:

Most guns are used in self defense.

 

[ek]

Harder to get away with murder these days. Deters a lot of people.

A little off topic, but noted poker writer David Sklansky in his book "Poker, Gaming and Life" opines that it is not the people that actually kill people that are to be despised, for they are sick (they would have to be to make such a terribly negative expected value decision). He says it is the people who would kill, but are afraid of the consequences, that are truly the most despicable people in the world.

I tend to agree.

 

[Cyrus]

Did you see the FBI chart I linked to?

This crap about more guns = more violence is flat out FALSE!

 

[Cyrus]

Probably fewer than 2% of handguns and well under 1% of all
guns will ever be involved in a violent crime. Thus, the problem
of criminal gun violence is concentrated within a very small subset
of gun owners, indicating that gun control aimed at the general
population faces a serious needle-in-the-haystack problem.

http://rkba.org/research/kleck/point-blank-summary

 

[shmoe]

Yes that is what I am getting at. It's not the gun that gets up by itself and decides to go on a rampage...it's the idiot using it. If guns were banned it would be just as easy for them to poison (but that's not as flashy), make a bomb, throw knives...ect. Yes guns are dangerous in the wrong hands but unfortunately so are a lot of things.

Guns make it much easier though. Way more damage can be caused with little skill or practice by someone with a gun than someone with a bunch of knives.


It would be impossible for Canada to get rid of guns. I think I know more people with guns than without, but I don't know a single person who owns a gun for protection from other people. Hunting, trap/target shooting, and general rural use (rabid animals, pest control, opening cans, doorstops), or self defense in the bush, but not for protection from other people. Only the target shooters have handguns, and these are olympic style ones that stay locked in cases when not in use.

 

[Evo]

Homicides commited with guns has been dropping drastically in the US. If "more guns equals more murders", why the astounding drop?

Notice anything about the huge spike in gun homicides in the late 80's through early 90's commited by the age group 14-24? Notice this spike coincides with "gangsta rap"? I thought that was interesting.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1595/weapagepa4.gif
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm