The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama?

[周志强]

21 Mar 2008
The Dalai Lama on Thursday said he was ready to meet Chinese leaders, including President Hu Jintao, to discuss the Tibet issue, and was even prepared to go to Beijing.

He told journalists on Thursday that he wants to hold face-to-talks with the Chinese regime in Beijing as China tightens security in Tibet.

"I am always ready to meet the Chinese leaders, and particularly Hu Jintao. I am very happy to meet," he said.

The Dalai Lam have said his government-in-exile will make it clear that when Tibet is allowed autonomy and it is peaceful and stable, it could be united with China and prosper.

The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama,for that will incur attention on the autarchic system!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

21 Mar 2008
The Dalai Lama on Thursday said he was ready to meet Chinese leaders, including President Hu Jintao, to discuss the Tibet issue, and was even prepared to go to Beijing.

He told journalists on Thursday that he wants to hold face-to-talks with the Chinese regime in Beijing as China tightens security in Tibet.

"I am always ready to meet the Chinese leaders, and particularly Hu Jintao. I am very happy to meet," he said.

The Dalai Lam have said his government-in-exile will make it clear that when Tibet is allowed autonomy and it is peaceful and stable, it could be united with China and prosper.

What do you want to discuss?

I'm aware of the situation but with China's power of veto there is only diplomatic pressure on China, works the same way with the US on the legality of Iraq. You cannot exercise authority over a country with the power of veto, whether an invasion is legal or not. Personally I say since both happened in the lifetime of the UN, they are both illegal. But that wouldn't be a popular opinion, even though they both are contested.

I don't buy the claim that China has an imperial right to Tibet either, Mongolia might of had that right by conquest, but China is not Mongolia.

 

[周志强]

Boycott the 2008 Beijing Olympics!

I don't buy the claim that China has an imperial right to Tibet either, Mongolia might of had that right by conquest, but China is not Mongolia...

Independence would be harmful.
A more free China is the Choice.

Say no to the 2008 Beijing Olympics will help a more free China!

No participate in the 2008 Beijing Olympics! No watch the games! No buy the mementos! If you come to Beijing to see the games,wear a T-shirt bearing the logo above at least?

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/beijing-olympics-boycott.html

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well I understand you wanting to soapbox this. But I don't think this is really a debate? Anyway, if this thread gets deleted don't take it personally. It's an important issue.

 

[Art]

Autonomous Tibet under the Dalai Lama was a serfdom with the Tibetan people scraping a subsistence living with an average life expectancy of 37 and pretty much total illiteracy whilst the monks who they served lived in relative luxury.

Once the Chinese gov't took greater control following the failed uprising led by the Dalai Lama, who unhappy with the large degree of autonomy they already had sought full independence, they have poured billions into the Tibet economy greatly improving the literacy rate and bringing the average life expectancy up to the Chinese average of 70.

The current problems seem to be a direct consequence of Tibet's economic revival as this has led to a large influx of Han Chinese who now make up about 20% of the Tibetan population. These immigrants are far more successful in business than the indigenous Tibetans whose resentment was demonstrated by their attacking the homes, businesses and the immigrants themselves during the current trouble.

The Chinese gov't have rushed troops to the area to quell the rioters which seems to have been achieved mainly through a show of force rather than the use of force and so personally I find it hard to fathom exactly what the west thinks the Chinese gov't have done wrong Should they have stood back and allowed all 'foreigners' in Tibet to be massacred?

Meanwhile the Dalai Lama, opportunistic as ever, is trying to use the current ethnic violence to further his own ambitions which not unsurprisingly is irritating the Chinese gov't.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

That's distinctly colonialist perspective you have their. Same goes for African conquest, the destruction of most of the North American Indians, would you justify that as easily? What right does China have to decide Tibet's fate, it has no claim to ownership at all, and is merely using it as a strategic/resource concern. Are we going to assume that Tibet would have remained isolated from the modern world for the last nigh on 50 years? Or reality? Perhaps they should take on Nepal next then the rest of Asia, since the Mongols did and that seems to be their justification for taking Tibet.

 

[Art]

That's distinctly colonialist perspective you have their. Same goes for African conquest, the destruction of most of the North American Indians, would you justify that as easily? What right does China have to decide Tibet's fate, it has no claim to ownership at all, and is merely using it as a strategic/resource concern. Are we going to assume that Tibet would have remained isolated from the modern world for the last nigh on 50 years? Or reality? Perhaps they should take on Nepal next then the rest of Asia, since the Mongols did and that seems to be their justification for taking Tibet.

What has any of that to do with the matter under discussion

Are you saying the Chinese gov't should stand off and let the rioters massacre whomsoever they feel like who happen in the main to be Han Chinese?

If you want to get into the historical perspective you will find Tibet has been under Chinese rule since around 1720 apart from a few spells when it was invaded by the Russians the Nepalese and the British.

Still if you want to bring in extraneous matters, iirc wasn't it you who called Irish republicans terrorists for rejecting British rule in N. Ireland despite in that situation the republicans being the ones who were the victims of social oppression? Why the change of heart and lack of consistency?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

What has any of that to do with the matter under discussion

Are you saying the Chinese gov't should stand off and let the rioters massacre whomsoever they feel like who happen in the main to be Han Chinese?

If you want to get into the historical perspective you will find Tibet has been under Chinese rule since around 1720 apart from a few spells when it was invaded by the Russians the Nepalese and the British.

Still if you want to bring in extraneous matters, iirc wasn't it you who called Irish republicans terrorists for rejecting British rule in N. Ireland despite in that situation the republicans being the ones who were the victims of social oppression? Why the change of heart and lack of consistency?

No it hasn't? And what right does that give for it to invade it in 1949? I want to get into the whole perspective, after all just ignoring history is pointless. I'm not that bothered by the riots, they are a symptom of the Chinese government, they shouldn't expect it when they are occupying another country. Same as you'd expect it if say Israel was occupying Palestine. Humans are territorial, I don't condone violence at all, but it's going to happen and keep happening. I'd get used to it.

 

[Art]

No it hasn't? And what right does that give for it to invade it in 1949? I want to get into the whole perspective, after all just ignoring history is pointless. I'm not that bothered by the riots, they are a symptom of the Chinese government, they shouldn't expect it when they are occupying another country. Same as you'd expect it if say Israel was occupying Palestine. Humans are territorial, I don't condone violence at all, but it's going to happen and keep happening. I'd get used to it.

Well seeing as how the person who started this thread isn't calling for independence and the Dalai Lama isn't calling for independence and the indigenous Tibet local gov't is not calling for independence that leaves only you and the rioters who burned Han Chinese alive in their shops holding that position.

Bottom line is this isn't a 'freedom' movement it is a bunch of thugs practicing racially motivated ethnic cleansing.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well seeing as how the person who started this thread isn't calling for independence and the Dalai Lama isn't calling for independence and the indigenous Tibet local gov't is not calling for independence that leaves only you and the rioters who burned Han Chinese alive in their shops holding that position.

Good. Free Tibet. Or am I not allowed to disagree with the OP?

If the Dalai Llama could get independence he'd want it, after all that's what he's been asking for for years up until recently.

 

[Art]

Good. Free Tibet. Or am I not allowed to disagree with the OP?

If the Dalai Llama could get independence he'd want it, after all that's what he's been asking for for years up until recently.

Actually the Dalai Lama is happy with any form of government which allows him to reestablish serfdom and enslavement.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Actually the Dalai Lama is happy with any form of government which allows him to reestablish serfdom and enslavement.

Sorry but that's just stupid, what makes you think that he's going to reestablish serfdom and slavedom? has he said that?

 

[Art]

Sorry but that's just stupid, what makes you think that he's going to reestablish serfdom and slavedom? has he said that?

Has he said he wouldn't? In the absence of any new statements on the subject by him it seems fair to presume the 'divine being' is of the same mind as he was prior to his unsuccessful rebellion.

It's kind of fun but at the same time hard to imagine him and his monks getting jobs to support themselves.

Anyway getting back to the op who called for a boycott of the Olympics, I still can't fathom why?

Personally to avoid similar race riots in the future I think the Chinese gov't do need to be more sensitive toward Tibetans' insecurities and limit migration there and perhaps adopt an affirmative action type of approach towards helping the Tibetans compete with the immigrants (and second and third generation offspring of immigrants who are also being targeted by the rioters)

 

[Art]

Following the initial complaints the Chinese security forces were too aggressive in their management of the riots it seems the Chinese are now being criticised for not doing enough, soon enough.

As Tibet Erupted, China Security Forces Wavered

BEIJING — In the chaotic hours after Lhasa erupted March 14, Tibetans rampaged through the city’s old quarter, waving steel scabbards and burning or looting Chinese shops. Clothes, souvenirs and other tourist trinkets were dumped outside and set afire as thick gray smoke darkened the midday sky. Tibetan fury, uncorked, boiled over.
Foreigners and Lhasa residents who witnessed the violence were stunned by what they saw, and by what they did not see: the police. Riot police officers fled after an initial skirmish and then were often nowhere to be found. Some Chinese shopkeepers begged for protection.

“The whole day I didn’t see a single police officer or soldier,” said an American woman who spent hours navigating the riot scene. “The Tibetans were just running free.”

Lhasa is now occupied by thousands of paramilitary police officers and troops of the People’s Liberation Army. But witnesses say that for almost 24 hours, the paramilitary police seemed unexpectedly paralyzed or unprepared, despite days of rising tensions with Tibetan monks.

The absence of police officers emboldened the Tibetan crowds, which terrorized Chinese residents, toppled fire trucks and hurled stones into Chinese-owned shops. In turn, escalating violence touched off a sweeping crackdown and provided fodder for a propaganda-fueled nationalist backlash against Tibetans across the rest of China that is still under way.
snip
Angry Tibetans attacked a branch of the Bank of China and burned it to a blackened husk. Photos and video images show Tibetans smashing Chinese shops with stones and setting them on fire. Witnesses described Tibetans attacking Chinese on bicycles and throwing rocks at taxis driven by Chinese. Later, crowds also burned shops owned by Muslims.

“This wasn’t organized, but it was very clear that they wanted the Chinese out,” said the American woman who witnessed the riots and asked not to be identified for fear of reprisals. She said Tibetan grievances exploded in anger. Crowds tied ceremonial silk scarves across the threshold of Tibetan shops to indicate they should not be damaged.

Mr. Miles, the journalist, found himself the only Western reporter on the scene. He spent the next several hours carefully walking around the old Tibetan quarter as rioters burned buildings and overturned cars. “I was looking around expecting an immediate, rapid response,” he said. “But nothing happened. I kept asking people, ‘Where are the police?’ ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/24/w...1364097600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Has he said he wouldn't? In the absence of any new statements on the subject by him it seems fair to presume the 'divine being' is of the same mind as he was prior to his unsuccessful rebellion.

It's kind of fun but at the same time hard to imagine him and his monks getting jobs to support themselves.

Anyway getting back to the op who called for a boycott of the Olympics, I still can't fathom why?

Personally to avoid similar race riots in the future I think the Chinese gov't do need to be more sensitive toward Tibetans' insecurities and limit migration there and perhaps adopt an affirmative action type of approach towards helping the Tibetans compete with the immigrants (and second and third generation offspring of immigrants who are also being targeted by the rioters)

Monks don't work, in Buddhism the temples are usually provided for by charity. Monks usually beg for food as well. I really don't think the Dalia Lama as Westernized as he now is, is going to come back and install himself as some sort of feudal monarch, that's so 1940's.

I don't think the Olympics need to be boycotted necessarily, except maybe by Tibet.

 

[Art]

Monks don't work, in Buddhism the temples are usually provided for by charity. Monks usually beg for food as well. I really don't think the Dalia Lama as Westernized as he now is, is going to come back and install himself as some sort of feudal monarch, that's so 1940's.

I don't think the Olympics need to be boycotted necessarily, except maybe by Tibet.

Westernised He lives in India!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Westernised He lives in India!

He's spent most of his life traveling to and from the US and other Western countries though. Trying to advance his cause of a free Tibet. I think you'll find he's more Western than you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama

Foreign relations

Since 1967, the Dalai Lama has initiated a series of tours in 46 nations. He has frequently engaged on religious dialogue. He met with Pope Paul VI at the Vatican in 1973. He met with Pope John Paul II in 1980 and also later in 1982, 1986, 1988, 1990, and 2003. In 1990, he met in Dharamsala with a delegation of Jewish teachers for an extensive interfaith dialogue.[22] He has since visited Israel three times and met in 2006 with the Chief Rabbi of Israel. In 2006, he met privately with Pope Benedict XVI. He has also met the Archbishop of Canterbury, the late Dr. Robert Runcie, and other leaders of the Anglican Church in London, Gordon B. Hinckley, late President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), as well as senior Eastern Orthodox Church, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, and Sikh officials.

The Dalai Lama visited Pope John Paul II eight times, more than any other single dignitary.

The Dalai Lama accepted the 1951 Seventeen Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet with the People's Republic of China. However, his brothers moved to Kalimpong in India and, with the help of the Indian and American governments, organized pro-independence literature and the smuggling of weapons into Tibet. Armed struggles broke out in Amdo and Kham in 1956 and later spread to Central Tibet. The movement was a failure and was forced to retreat to Nepal or go underground. Following normalisation of relations between the United States and the People's Republic of China, American support was cut off in the early 1970s. The Dalai Lama then began to formulate his policy towards a peaceful solution in which a democratic autonomous Tibet would be established. The Dalai Lama on March 16, 2008 called for an international probe of China's treatment of Tibet, which he said is causing "cultural genocide" of his people.[23]He has stated that he will step down as leader of Tibet's government-in-exile if violence by protesters in the region worsens, the exiled spiritual leader said March 18, 2008 after China's premier Wen Jiabao blamed his supporters for the growing unrest.[24] On March 20, 2008, he claimed he was powerless to stop anti-Chinese violence.[25]

The Dalai Lama endorsed the founding of the Dalai Lama Foundation in order to promote peace and ethics worldwide. The Dalai Lama is not operationally involved with this foundation, though he suggests some overall direction and his office is routinely briefed on its activities.[26] He has also stated his belief that modern scientific findings take precedence over ancient religions.[27][28]

The Dalai Lama has been successful in gaining Western sympathy for Tibetan self-determination, including vocal support from numerous Hollywood celebrities, most notably the actors Richard Gere and Steven Seagal, as well as lawmakers from several major countries.[33]

In October 1998, the Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged that it received US$1.7 million a year in the 1960s from the U.S. Government through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), and had also trained a resistance movement in Colorado, (USA).[34][35][36][37]

The Dalai Lama has on occasion been denounced by the Chinese government as a supporter of Tibetan independence. Over time, he has developed a public position stating that he is not in favour of Tibetan independence[38] and would not object to a status in which Tibet has internal autonomy while the PRC manages some aspects of Tibet's defence and foreign affairs.[39] In his 'Middle Way Approach', he laid down that the Chinese government can take care of foreign affairs and defence, and that Tibet should be managed by an elected body.[40]

On 18 April 2005, TIME Magazine placed the Dalai Lama on its list of the world's 100 most influential people.[41]

On 22 June 2006, the Parliament of Canada voted unanimously to make The Dalai Lama an honorary citizen of Canada.[42][43] This marks the third of four times in history that the Government of Canada has bestowed this honour, the others being Raoul Wallenberg posthumously in 1985, Nelson Mandela in 2001 and Aung San Suu Kyi in 2007.

In September 2006, the United States Congress voted to award the Dalai Lama the Congressional Gold Medal,[44] the highest award which may be bestowed by the Legislative Branch of the United States government. The actual ceremony and awarding of the medal took place on 17 October 2007. The Chinese Government has reacted angrily to the award, which it merely refers to as "the extremely wrong arrangements." Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said: "It seriously violates the norm of international relations and seriously wounded the feelings of the Chinese people and interfered with China's internal affairs."[45]

In June 2007, the Dalai Lama made an Australian tour, delivering public talks in Perth, Bendigo, Melbourne, Geelong, Sydney, Canberra and Brisbane.

Despite protest from China, German Chancellor Angela Merkel met with the Dalai Lama in the Berlin Chancellery on 25 September 2007. The meeting was characterized as "private and informal talks" in order to avert potential retaliation by China such as the severance of trade ties. In response to the meeting, China canceled meetings with German officials including Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries.[46]

In May 2007, Chhime Rigzing, a senior spokesman for the Tibetan spiritual leader's office, stated that the Dalai Lama wants to reduce his political burden as he moves into "retirement".[47]

Rigzing stated "The political leadership will be transferred over a period of time but he will inevitably continue to be the spiritual leader because as the Dalai Lama, the issue of relinquishing the post does not arise."

The Dalai Lama announced he would like the elected Tibetan parliament-in-exile to have more responsibility over administration.

On 1 September 2007, China issued new rules controlling the selection of the next Dalai Lama which will virtually prevent his followers from choosing his reincarnation, since any reincarnation must bear the seal of approval by China's cabinet. These regulations could potentially result in one Dalai Lama approved by the Chinese government, and another chosen outside of Tibet.[48] This would be similar to the present situation with the Panchen Lamas and Karmapas. In November 2007, Tashi Wangdi, said the new rules mean nothing. "It will have no effect" said Wangdi. You can't impose a Pope. You can't impose an imam, an archbishop, saints, any religion… you can't politically impose these things on people. It has to be a decision of the followers of that tradition. The Chinese can use their political power: force. Again, it's meaningless."[49]

During the 2008 unrest in Tibet, Gyatso called for calm[50] and concurrently condemned Chinese violence[51]. His call was met with Tibetan frustration at his methodology[52] and goals[53] and Chinese allegations that he himself incited the violence[54] in order to ruin the 2008 Summer Olympics[55]. In response to the continued violence perpetrated by Chinese as well as Tibetans[56], on 2008-03-18, Gyatso threatened to step down[57], a move unprecedented in the history of the office of the Dalai Lama[58]. Aides later clarified that this threat was predicated on a further escalation of violence, and that he did not presently have the intention of leaving his political or spiritual offices[59]. Many Tibetans expressed their support for the Dalai Lama, and the People's Republic of China intensified their propaganda campaign against him. [60]

Despite their leaders political stance, I'm still a supporter of free Tibet.

 

[ShawnD]

No participate in the 2008 Beijing Olympics! No watch the games!

Don't worry, most of us don't watch the Olympics anyway. Mainstream TV shows are not pushed aside to show the olympics, so that stuff is mostly on at night when everyone is asleep. I remember back in 2002, the winter olympics in salt lake city were shown after like 11pm until 6am, even though salt lake city is a close time zone to my own. Simply put: nobody has cared about the olympics since the fall of the soviet union.