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The collapse of religion, mass suicides, the collapse of governments?

  1. Jun 24, 2003 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    The collapse of religions, mass suicides, the collapse of governments?

    What would the result be if, as I suspect, it [edit to avoid confusion] was generally believed that some highly advanced civilization - one completely beyond our reach or understanding in any technical or intellectual sense - is visiting our planet. Assume further that "they" are doing mysterious things for unknown reasons. Now, although I believe this could well be true [please see the new UFO Napster for highly compelling evidence from government files https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2805], I am not making the argument that this is true. I am asking for your thoughts on the implications if this were true, and if it were generally known..

    Edit to further reduce confusion
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2003
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 24, 2003 #2
    ever seen Contact? probobly pretty much like that.
     
  4. Jun 25, 2003 #3
    Re: The collapse of religions, mass suicides, the collapse of governments?

    Highly unlikely ... Are you at all familiar with lucid dreams? Where you dream that you're wide awake, and you don't know otherwise that you're in a dream? I have and they can be very real! I would be more inclined to think along these lines first, including the likelihood of a "spiritual reality," than that of people being abducted by aliens.
     
  5. Jun 25, 2003 #4

    Ivan Seeking

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    Re: Re: The collapse of religions, mass suicides, the collapse of governments?

    Actually, I was not intending to debate the existence of ET here. I will be glad to do this in the PS UFO thread. Also, I ask you to view the government files that I have posted at the UFO Napster - the link posted - before you comment; in particular see the first post with the report on Iran in 1976 for a nice snapshot of this phenomenon. RADAR and other electronic systems, and on-duty security forces and pilots and generals don't have lucid dreams. Also, although the idea of alien abductions could be an issue, I don't necessarily mean to include this as a part of the discussion.

    I am wondering if all of you philosophy types agree with the conclusions of the government study from the late sixties. I can dig this up if needed and I forget the exact details for the moment, but basically, the conclusions reached were that if ET is here, and if people knew it, all sorts of horrible things would happen as indicated by the title of this thread. Considering that recent polls claim that more than half of all Americans believe ET is here, I wonder if any basis is found for these earlier conclusions. Perhaps the reality of ET would be a far cry from opinions expressed in random polls?
     
  6. Jun 25, 2003 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    How do you mean exactly. In contact, the aliens were a long way away - depending on your point of view. But if ETs are here, and if they are doing strange things that we can't understand, would you be worried? Would you worry about abductions? How might this affect your religious beliefs? What could this mean about ET's role in our history? Do you feel that these kinds of questions could create a crisis of belief for some people? These are the kinds of things the study concluded...including I think the idea that we may lose confidence in our government’s ability to protect us. This primary role of government, to protect its citizens, if perceived as futile, could actually lead to a collapse of governments.
     
  7. Jun 25, 2003 #6
    I would be more inclined to believe that this was an elaborate means by which the government can cover up its own experiments. Or at least so I've heard ...
     
  8. Jun 25, 2003 #7
    remember the crowds all over? there were religious fanatics, and alein admirers and other such brichabrack.
     
  9. Jun 25, 2003 #8

    Ivan Seeking

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    Well, I really don't want to dragged into an ET debate here. I will only say that I considered this possiblity for many years but it fails in the face of the evidence. If you wish to debate this issue please post your comments in the PS forum in the UFO thread. How about actually responding to my question?
     
  10. Jun 25, 2003 #9
    I don't believe it's possible (plausible), that's why I have nothing to say about it. Meaning, why get worked up over nothing? :smile:
     
  11. Jun 25, 2003 #10

    Ivan Seeking

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    Since you clearly have not had the time nor inclination to review the evidence, I will consider this a religious statement. Why did you even bother to respond? Religious conviction? :smile:

    Iacchus32, I really do understand your point of view here. But if you will meet me in the UFO thread, I am quite sure that your confidence can be shaken.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2003
  12. Jun 25, 2003 #11

    Ivan Seeking

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    Ah yes. In fact, we see this phenomenon around the alien claim already. This is one thing that occurs to me: That it will cause a mutation in religion, some might argue enlightenment, or an expansion in the defined field of religion. I would expect ET to be assimilated into religious beliefs. I know that several churches [or at least church representatives] have commented on this. Adventists have told me that if they are here, ET is evil. I understand but have not confirmed that the Pope says that any potential ETs are a part of God's creation. One Presbyterian minister claims the ET is a good and active part of our religious history. Others claim that there are evil ETs and good ETs.
     
  13. Jun 25, 2003 #12
    exactly, you have nothing to say concerning the purpose of this thread. you should therefore never have posted.
     
  14. Jun 25, 2003 #13

    FZ+

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    Let's see... among the scientists...

    1. A group who would feel vindicated. There would of course find themselves on the top of the pile, get recruited into the military etc.
    2. A normal group who would be convinced given sufficient evidence. This would of course spur research into chemogenesis (It means that previous assessments to the probability of two similar forms of life appearing is much larger than expected). Further vindication of Einstein-Rosen gates and some other theories. (How would the aliens communicate with home base? Disproof for some parts of relativity?) New branch of xenobiology science, of course.
    3. A small radical group who would absolutely refuse to accept the prescence of aliens.

    Among the general public...

    1. Panic!! If they are here already, mankind is clearly on the back foot. Given the stereotype of alien invaders, most would probably fear pretty scared... And when man's superiority complex breaks down, it breaks right down... Many will not accept this.
    2. The spiritualist revolution. Most current religions would find it hard to concile with the existence of alien life. Hence the development of further sects or cults. No doubt some will think of the aliens as Gods. Depends on relative technological differential, though.
    3. Hostility. Imagine racism added to the space level. It could get ugly. Consider this. What would Bush, an evangelical christian/fundamentallist do if he sees inhuman beasts coming into the earth? Time to duck and cover, folks...

    The fact is, I usually don't reckon much on the rational thinking of the general public. Looking at the alien related literature, we either have a profusion of hatred and fear towards invaders, sometimes with a crusader subtext, or we have an inferiority thing - ie. an idea for man's existence as the aliens' slaves/students, to be patronised over. There is scant ideas of a treatment as equals, with a relationship both will share in and benefit from.
     
  15. Jun 25, 2003 #14
    My guess is panic and confussion at first but then the same old acceptance and understanding like the Earth is round thing. People adapt, it would be very unlikely that we were the only one's in this big universe I think most people already know that, but also unlikely that they should interfere with humanities developement. Putting technology aside, I'll bet aliens wouldn't be that dissimiliar from ourselves, I mean within 500 years the human race may be on the other side of the galaxy and looking down at some planet and maybe seeing something like ourselves at present day.
     
  16. Jun 26, 2003 #15
    Excuse me, but what does the title of this thread have to do with its content?
     
  17. Jun 26, 2003 #16

    Ivan Seeking

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    Maybe you missed an earlier comment. These were types of conclusions reached by a study that asked this question back in 1969 [I believe].

     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2003
  18. Jun 26, 2003 #17
    I think man had been introduced to ET's in its span of history, legendary or otherwise. If you were an ET who happened to land on a planet with primitive inhabitants, and considering you behave appropriately and they get awed by techno gadgets or ESP which is fantastically highly advanced for the life of them, it won't be unusual if they regard such creatures as 'gods', and make religion for their gods.

    Fallible as the otherworld beings were, the blatant among them would manipulate and proclaim to be chosen gods and use the inhabitants to further selfish agendas and so wage wars and pillaging, or for the noble and sane, teaching their subjects and creating cultures and civilizations.

    As for the moral issues, things could get rather profound, shocking, or hilarious even. If one were to tinker on Sumerian 'legends' for example, it documented that a certain rather unconvential god named Enki, who tends to scoff at established norms of the gods, proceeded to teach the 'created' man and woman in the garden the secret of sex, while the same god also cleverly saved humanity during the flood by indirectly instructing his trusted subject how to build a boat.

    What if a bearded benevolent ET whose 'homeship', in the course of its solar revolution, would rest like a northern star on its summer season though it's winter season on earth, had the habit of bringing in summer gifts to freezing folks down there on his plane. Of course Santa Claus is just a myth to amuse children.

    Well there may be bad Et's out there as well as good, but how does it compare if down here some stagnatingly evolved dropouts had been messing up human history in their lust for power and suppressing humanity important knowledge to keep them unaware slaves who could be easily manipulated.

    Well these are just some "suppose" stuffs. I guess the key for humanity, is to continually seek for knowledge and awareness and at the same time be discerning, rather than to keep itself bounded by fear due to ignorance, irresponsibility or suppression, from the perspective of such a big universe, and of himself/herself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2003
  19. Jun 28, 2003 #18

    Ivan Seeking

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    I first recognized the true dis-believer when I asked a very skeptical friend what would constitute proof of ET to him. He said nothing. I asked "what if a flying saucer landed in your back yard, and then ET got out and offered to take you for a ride"? He answered, "I would assume that I'm hallucinating". He falsely believes this to be objectivity. It is really what I like to call "closed mindlessness", or the true disbeliever.

    I am not familiar with this expression; on the back foot. What does this mean. I could interpret this a couple of ways
    I check up on the latest from the extreme fringe from time to time; and occasionally some that are not even really fringe - we're talking off the map! The latest that I read is that ET is harvesting souls. The claim is that ET created us so that he can harvest our souls and use us as spiritual slaves for all of eternity. LOL! That is about as wild as anything I have ever heard. Talk about fear mongering! Imagine the fear that this claim could create. This is one reason why I think that the more good information that science can provide on this issue, the better. Heck, even some good lies would be better than allowing nuts like this to dominate the media. Hmmmm...maybe that's what the government has been doing all along...hmmmm.... :wink:

    Edit: I should throw in a comment aired this week on national television as a direct quote from Margret Thatcher - the former British PM. The author of what is being touted as the definitive text on the Rendlesham Forest incident - this author was the first to have access to the British defense files - is claiming that, when she asked Thatcher about UFOs, Thatcher's response was: "You have to have all of the facts. The people cannot be told". [I have no further information regarding this claim beyond a TV show.]

    On the other hand, if more than half of all people in the US believe that ET is here, then why don't we see any panic? I wonder if anyone can really consider this question in the abstract. Perhaps such a reality is just too much to imagine. I have even noticed this about myself. For years I read books and magazines, and watched TV, and studied UFO case files. I have spoken with people who claim to have seen anything from lights is the sky, to ET phase shifting through their bedroom wall. Even though I felt strongly for many years that some of this stuff could actually be true, then that some is likely true, and for about the last five years I felt that some small fraction of these stories must be true, I never really felt the impact of the concept that "it is true". I never could really believe it. When I recently reached the point that I could no longer deny what to me finally appears to be undeniable - that ET really is here - it actually shook me up a quite a bit…and my wife also. She has indicated that the information I have shown her has actually scared her. After nearly 20 years of serious consideration, I had never really considered the overwhelmingly strange reality that one grapple with if ET is here. I can see where a high strung, or an easily influenced individual could really get into trouble with these ideas.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2003
  20. Jun 28, 2003 #19
    hmm.. well if a flying saucer lands in my backyard, I'll believe it. Anything but undeniable proof is just another example of pop culture mythology.
     
  21. Jun 28, 2003 #20

    Ivan Seeking

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    Well, that would make most of science and history pop culture mythology.

    Edit: This assumes of course that we don't start a "what is proof", or a "does proof exist" discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2003
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