The day I died (By the BBC)

  1. There is a tremendous amount of evidence that consciousness survives death. Watch all 6 parts though before replying.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2014
  2. jcsd
  3. disregardthat

    disregardthat 1,814
    Science Advisor

    Death: "the permanent end of all life functions in an organism or part of an organism". That includes consciousness. Thus you can't bring evidence for consciousness after death. The "evidence" takes form of stories from people having near death experiences.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2014
  4. There is absolutely zero evidence.

    NDE's are easily explainable and certainly don't constitute valid evidence.
  5. Ivan Seeking

    Ivan Seeking 12,094
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I had a chance to chime in for a day or two here so I wanted to throw in my two-cents worth.

    The mystery is the claim that memories of real events formed while the person had no measurable brain function.
  6. Why NDE's are not explainable with current materialistic thinking
    Oxygen deprivation does not produce clear thinking hyper real experiences, but instead produces bizarre hallucinations.
    The materialistic view of consciousness cannot explain how patients learn things that they could not have been aware of during their out of body experience.
    Endorphins cannot account for the pleasurable experience brought on by a NDE because endorphins produce a relaxed state of mind, not one that is super fast and realer than real.
    Stimulation of the right temporal lobe cannot account for the life review. Temporal lobe stimulation produces random memories, not a full life time of them.
    The materialistic view of consciousness cannot explain how blind people can see during their out of body experience.
    The materialistic view of consciousness cannot explain how people can learn things during their NDE, that later turn out to be true. For example, learning about a relative who has died or a sister or bother who died before they were born, and were never told about.
    It has been shown through cases like Pam Reynolds (who was on the video) that many NDE's happen when a persons brain is flatlined.
  7. All well and good, but I'd like some sources to back all of this up. Preferably published papers and not just anecdotal evidence.
  8. Well unfortunately humans are not good with things like this and until some valid research is shown anecdotal evidence just isn't going to cover it.

    I'm not impressed with links to books. There should be peer reviewed papers on this if it's substantial enough and not simply books put out there by people to make money.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  9. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    It's their heart that flatlines. To my knowledge no one has been revived after true brain death. Also, many people that claim NDE's had visions of *Hell*. Odd that almost all NDE's are Christian?

    Here is an article about some of the studies, but they are not the studies themselves.

    Another good read with references.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  10. Ivan Seeking

    Ivan Seeking 12,094
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    According to Parnia, brain function stops shortly after the heart stops. The point of the study was to focus on people who had been clinically dead - no brain function. The key to his most famous case is that memories of specific events allegedly formed while the patient was clinically dead - memories that could be checked for accuracy.

    A flat EEG and cell death [brain death] are not the same thing.

    This is one paper but only for a fee. There is another that was public... I'll try to find it later, but I don't know if that was published in a proper journal.
  11. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Parnia's work is mentioned in the second article i posted.

    Here is an article about it.

    This link has an update with an hour long video of a talk about the study from Parnia himself in 2010.
  12. By Evo "It's their heart that flatlines. To my knowledge no one has been revived after true brain death. Also, many people that claim NDE's had visions of *Hell*. Odd that almost all NDE's are Christian?"

    You should watch all six parts of that movie. Especially about Pam Reynolds.

    What I was saying is that their EEG had flatlined. It was just a bad use of words on my part to say brain, but EEG was what I meant.

    Also NDE's occur cross culturally all around the world, and most of them contain the same core elements.

    I am aware of the Hellish ones as well. There are actually three types of negative NDE's.
    The void
    And hellish
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  13. I'm waiting for something (from everyone not just yourself) that shows a person has a vivid memory of an event occurring in NDE form and then that person recalling it accurately as a memory - no input from other parties.

    It is widely known (particularly revolving around group hysteria) that people will recall things that simply didn't happen / they didn't witness, but what others around them are saying / doing makes them believe they did.

    So far, all I've seen is a lot of anecdotal evidence at best so far as people recalling "what happened" goes.

    That website is not evidence in the slightest. It is full of religion and all anecdotal. I haven't found one published paper on it and only books for sale.
  14. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Yeah, the doctors are now saying that an EEG is not sensitive enough. They have picked up activity with fMRI when an EEG shows nothing. The people are *near* death, not dead, so it could be a dream, hallucination, etc... There is a lot of good information in the articles I posted.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  15. If I sound rude I don't mean too I am just trying to be to the point.

    It takes a lot of brain activity just to dream, so how is a tiny bit of almost unmesurable brain activity going to create an experience that feels realer than reality, with the person pocessing all of their emotions and cognitive functions. And their cognitive functions and emotions being increased. Plus there are profound personality changes in people that have these experiences. Most of them become very altruistic. And not only from the good ones either. If a person is able to learn from a hellish one then they too are transformed for the better.

    And I am not just one of those people that believe because I want to believe. I am not religious or a new ager. I started out as an atheist, but when I looked at the evidence with an open mind I had to change my beliefs. Now I am an agnostic when it comes to God, but I do defiantly believe that consciousness survives death.

    I admit I don't have links to research papers to back me up, but I do know that research has been done. Especially by Pim Van Lommel a doctor in Holland. You can read about his research in his book called Consciousness beyond life

    Evo, I will look at all your links, but I am tired right now, but I promise that I will.
  16. According to who? With reference to what?
    Are they? Again according to who?
    As above.
    If I believed I'd seen hell - for what ever reason - I'm sure my personality would change too. No proof there.
    Again, I'm asking for this evidence you are talking about. Haven't seen any yet.
    Why books? Why would he do all that research and publish it in books but not papers - that should tell you all you need to know.

    I'd point out that time within dreams does not match reality. I'm more inclined to believe that the person experiences a weird dream like state during the wake up or even pre-death event and that is what generates this occurrence - it doesn't have to happen during the actual death itself - it is only because we say it does that we assume it is during the death. A few seconds of this state in real time could be enough for minutes (if not more) in a dream state.

    I had surgery about 10 years ago. You don't dream whilst you're out for an operation. However, I have an extremely vivid memory of just before I woke up - I was struggling violently against the doctors / nurses as if tied to the bed. It startled me at first but I was awake soon after it with no evidence of what had just happened.

    I have two options - one is that it actually occurred and that I had passed out again just before waking slightly later or the other is that I simply imagined it in a dream like state. The key to this for me was the fact I could see clearly around the ward as I struggled- something strange seeing as the final act of the op was to bandage my left eye completely to allow it to heal.

    Now I can completely understand how a person would see this as something paranormal, especially if the imagery was different (god, heaven, hell etc).

    Besides, given the number of people who go through the NDE process each day, is it so surprising a few wake up and say they think someone close has died and it actually happens? Think of the whole "think of someone and they ring you" scenario.
  17. Evo, I just read the link about the brain storm, and while it is very convincing I still do not believe that it is the causes the the NDE, I say this because of the experience of Pam Reynolds. Pam Reynolds had a massive blood clot (I don't remember what the technical word was) in the base of her brain. And in oder to remove this clot she would have to be put to death literally. Her body was chilled down so that it would not decay, her heart was stopped from beating, and all the blood was drained from her head, causing her EEG to flatline. If I remember correctly she was in this state for an hour. During the surgery when she was technically dead her mind left her body and observed what was going on. She observed the special instruments that were being used, and she over heard conversations that were going on. All of this happened after any electrical brain activity could have taken place. Also during this experience she experienced going through a tunnel with a light at the end and meeting family members who had already died. After being brought back to life she had a very vivd memory of this experience. Also her recollection of the instruments and conversations were accurate. Which all took place while she was clinically dead.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  18. Evo, I just read the page by Skeptical Inquirer.

    I used to get Skeptical Inquirer myself, but after reading many of their articles it came apparent to me that they just pick on the cases that are easy to explain away, and ignore the ones with real evidence. I think of them as pseudo skeptics. While a real skeptic looks at all evidence, they on the other hand are more of debunkers. And debunkers already have their minds made up.

    I have read about the debates going on over the Dutch studies in Pim Van Lommels book. I am also aware, but I can't back myself up because I don't remember what was said in the book, but Pim Van Lommel pointed out why much of the criticism of his work was wrong. I wish that I could say more in my defense on this one, but I can't.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  19. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Actually, the hallucination could have happened as she was being prepared for surgery or as she was being brought out, there is no telling. She may have been "technically dead", but she was not really dead. We have the ability to revive people that are very near death, but we do not have the ability to bring people back from the dead. Scientists are not sure when the moment of complete irriversable death happens, they've found that it is a process, and cold delays that process.

    I've had several operations where I came to during the operation, and could hear and see what was being said and done in the operating room. When having brain surgery, there was most likely a mirror or reflective object where she could have seen what was happening to herself. I know that when I've been wheeled into surgery, sometimes there were large reflective silver discs where I could see myself. But let's not consider practical explanations, let's jump to the supernatural.
  20. Again, I'd really like to see this "real evidence" because I can't find any.

    I'd also like to restate my question to you regarding why these people are only in "buy me" books and not published papers?
    My line of thinking precisely!
    I'm glad I'm not alone in my experiences! Ok, slightly different but still all adds up to the same thing.
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