The death of Trayvon Martin.

BobG
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Florida asked for this kind of nonsense by giving even idiots the right to carry firearms everywhere and now they'd better learn to deal with the mess they've created or accept the consequences.
One could argue that idiots have a right to carry firearms and that the US Constitution just puts that right in writing. Or one could argue that the US Constitution gives idiots the right to carry firearms. Either way, that right existed before Florida was even a state.

The problem with restricting gun ownership rights for idiots is who gets to decide who the idiots are - Republicans or Democrats.

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One could argue that idiots have a right to carry firearms and that the US Constitution just puts that right in writing. Or one could argue that the US Constitution gives idiots the right to carry firearms. Either way, that right existed before Florida was even a state.

The problem with restricting gun ownership rights for idiots is who gets to decide who the idiots are - Republicans or Democrats.
What a joke. My constitutional rights have been indefinitely suspended by congress, in Arizona the cops can now legally bust down your door without a warrant if they just say they smell pot, last year congress seriously debated allowing the military to suspend habeas corpus altogether and round people up into make-shift camps, and these hypocritical idiots who support these politicians are arguing they should have the right to carry firearms in public because the constitution give them that right.

As for who decides who the idiots are that can't carry guns in public, the same people who decide who the idiots are that can't drive a car in public, practice medicine, or cut hair for that matter. The majority.

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jim hardy
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Because of contradicting information, new information/details,
and the sources of those, I see that the whole case is relatively
more complicated then as it was first presented.

Therefore, I change my assessment of the situation to
"I need more relevant information."

Because of contradicting information, new information/details,
and the sources of those, I see that the whole case is relatively
more complicated then as it was first presented.

Therefore, I change my assessment of the situation to
"I need more relevant information."

I concur 100%, mostly because the case does not affect me very much, other than another reason to laugh at states like Florida who introduce such laws.

I think the law stands on shakey grounds to begin with. Look at cases of police officers who have abused their authority, and then they think they will give similar immunity to every person regardless of their mental and personality condition? There has to be some middle ground of reason when you make laws like this.

I have a hard time feeling bad for this guy even if he was provoked to use his gun. Put yourself in his shoes, and then try to feel sorry for him . . he was carrying a gun! and found himself in an altercation with a minor while carrying a gun! Would you ever find yourself confronting a teenager, no matter how suspicious he looked, while carrying a gun? That is just ridiculous and irresponsible, regardless of what the law says he can do. This guy was looking for trouble, and that was intentional. Should you go to jail for intentional irresponsible behavior that results in someone's death? I think most people do go to jail for that. What would happen if the same altercation happened, and he wasn't carrying a gun? He might have been assaulted, although he put himself in that position, and then the kid would be in the police station . . that seems like how it should have resulted.

I like the idea of personal freedom and the right to defend yourself, and I hope this guy didn't ruin it for everyone else.

Well, now it's his father's girlfriend who lives there.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

better wait and see what comes out on this one.

Being young and black does not make Martin right or wrong. Neither does his being dead.

I thought the authorities just let him go? If he was that bloody and beaten, where is the evidence of it? The doctors report of the broken nose? We have none of that so far. It says in the article, he was severely beaten, but the EMTs patched him up on the scene.

then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.
When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.
I did look for the doctor's report online to back the claims asserted in the article but found none, and so far, there are no pictures detailing Zimmerman's injuries.

In this political climate, I highly doubt that.

jim hardy
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If he was that bloody and beaten, where is the evidence of it?
in the police report i linked a page or two ago in post #43.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf [Broken]

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in the police report i linked a page or two ago in post #43.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf [Broken]
Hardly evidence to the questions:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf [Broken]

Paramedic records? You call that evidence yet stand firmly by your stance of, "just the facts please"? Those aren't facts just what one has stated. People do lie and police reports are only as good as the officer wants them to be, in that, he can forget crucial details or lie. That report must be corroborated by doctors/physicians and eye-witnesses, to which the ones coming forward are anonymous so they won't be of much help to Zimmerman's case.

Well, that's very odd, very odd indeed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...th_information [Broken]

http://www.hipaa.com/2009/09/hipaa-p...s-phi-include/ [Broken]
Not odd as medical records are released to the public when one wants them released on his/her volition. Releasing the medical records would only bolster his side of the story more than it takes away from his defense. Of course, he is the one saying he was severely beaten which is why he shot Martin.

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jim hardy
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Well if you're going to impugn sources you dont like

dont try to make me believe Daily Kos.

I'll stick with the police report for two reasons:

1. It's an official report not a reporter's interpretation
2. It's the account from the person closest to the events that we have.

People do lie and police reports are only as good as the officer wants them to be, in that, he can forget crucial details or lie.
Are you serious, sir?

Don't make this into something that I hadn't asked for in the first place. The burden of actual proof is on you now, not me, as you are the one claiming that is evidence, when in fact, it is just a police report. I am referring to actual evidence that corroborates the injuries, i.e. pictures, paramedic report, and doctors report, all to which that police report states the injuries Zimmerman had on scene(Zimmerman claims to have went to the hospital the next day).

It is a fact that a medical report that actually defends Zimmerman's account doesn't exist as of yet. That is a fact. A police report is only an account of what happened and is only good as evidence if it is stood by other parties, i.e. the list above of medical records, paramedic, and eye-witnesses accounts. Those are facts.

Are you serious, sir?
Humans lie, exaggerate, and/or tell half-truths. Police aren't exactly righteous through and through. One of the reasons I state the previous is because of internal affair reports, police brutality, and yes, police flat-out lying and exaggerating reports to which they've been sued of because of the actual evidence contradicting what they have reported.

OCR
phoenix:\\ said:
Not odd as medical records are released to the public when one wants them released
phoenix:\\ said:
I did look for the doctor's report online but found none
Oh wait... did you check Facebook?

Wikipedia said:
As of February 2012, Facebook has more than 845 million active users.

OCR... lol

jim hardy
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I am referring to actual evidence that corroborates the injuries, i.e. pictures, paramedic report, and doctors report, all to which that police report states the injuries Zimmerman had on scene(Zimmerman claims to have went to the hospital the next day).
and as i've said all along, we'll just have to wait.

EDIT:

never mind, moved down a couple posts

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Dale
Mentor
. The burden of actual proof is on you now, not me, as you are the one claiming that is evidence, when in fact, it is just a police report.
Police reports are evidence, and admissible in court as evidence. No piece of evidence is perfect nor 100% reliable, but that doesn't make it not evidence. Your assertion is absurd.

@OCR:

The general rule regarding release of a patient's medical record is that information contained in a patient's medical record may be released to third parties only if the patient has consented to such disclosure. The patient's express authorization is required before the medical records can be released to the following parties: patient's attorney or insurance company; patient's employer, unless a worker's compensation claim is involved; member of the patient's family, except where the family member has been appointed the the patient's attorney under a durable power of attorney for health care; government agencies; and other third parties.

Police reports are evidence, and admissible in court as evidence. No piece of evidence is perfect nor 100% reliable, but that doesn't make it not evidence. Your assertion is absurd.
Like I said before, they are usually backed by supporting evidence. A police report alone is not sufficient evidence. My assertion is not absurd as it is the process of the legal system. In cases, such as this one (or other cases that involves death), a police report alone is not sufficient evidence to compel a jury to not to convict or not to convict or a judge to base his/her decision on.

jim hardy
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I can see how Martin was seen on his back if Zimmerman shot him from the ground and the kid was bent attacking him. But I am still reserving judgement on this case.
If that was your point, the facts aren't all in yet, then we don't disagree.

it's a point of law you can't claim self defense in an altercation you started.
So Zimmerman's defense will of course portray Martin as having thrown the first punch.
Martin's side will portay the opposite.

I'm still waiting with open mind trying to stay above the media noise.

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Evo
Mentor
I read that Zimmerman was punched in the nose and he fell backward, hitting his head resulting in a minor abrasion. He had no serious injuries. IMO

and as i've said all along, we'll just have to wait.
You say that as if I should have already known that? You are the one, when I asked for evidence of his injuries, posting a police report as critical evidence. And now you say (or insinuate) I am silly for not heeding your words you claim to have been making all along?

If that was your point, the facts aren't all in yet, then we don't disagree.

I think it's a point of law you can't claim self defense in an altercation you started.
So Zimmerman's defense will of course portray Martin as having thrown the first punch.
Martin's side will portay the opposite.

I'm still waiting with open mind trying to stay above the media noise.
We can assume all we want but our assumptions aren't evidence and I don't believe a police report is credible evidence if it's all the evidence one has. I am contesting the case w/in the article you posted.

I read that Zimmerman was punched in the nose and he fell backward, hitting his head resulting in a minor abrasion. He had no serious injuries. IMO
Just b/c he refused further medical treatment doesn't mean the injuries weren't/aren't serious. Hitting your head (like Zimmerman claims), in my opinion, is serious as it can render certain faculties of reasoning impaired or eventually cause death like in the case of the high school football player that was tackled, and still played the game, but in the 3rd quarter collapsed and died. He died from a bleeding in the brain. But, in Zimmerman's case, his position that he had a broken nose, etc..., is not confirmed.

jim hardy
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You say that as if I should have already known that? You are the one, when I asked for evidence of his injuries, posting a police report as critical evidence. And now you say (or insinuate) I am silly for not heeding your words you claim to have been making all along?
i did review the thread from page 1 and i think i have been consistent since first post in #43.

If you have better 'evidence', let's have it.

OCR
phoenix:\\ said:
Thank you... every little bit helps...

The general rule regarding release of a patient's medical record is that information contained in a patient's medical record may be released to third parties only if the patient has consented to such disclosure. The patient's express authorization is required before the medical records can be released to the following parties: patient's attorney or insurance company; patient's employer, unless a worker's compensation claim is involved; member of the patient's family, except where the family member has been appointed the the patient's attorney under a durable power of attorney for health care; government agencies; and other third parties.
I really do believe the above quote, that is bold-faced for my education, is the point I was trying to make in post #84.

OCR

@OCR: Your point wasn't a point of, "trying to make a sound case", rather point of attempting to make a person look ridiculous with snide remarks. And, you failed to see the point I was actually trying to make without any form of deliberate attempt of making another look foolish.

i did review the thread from page 1 and i think i have been consistent since first post in #43.

If you have better 'evidence', let's have it.
I asked for credible evidence, you provided a police report that didn't have the evidence I had asked for. That is taking a side and not allowing the facts to arrive at a reasonable judgement, you then questioned my reasoning by saying, "are you serious, sir?" in reference to my statement about police lying in their reports. That lead me to a rather logical conclusion that you are sure that the police report is credible and Zimmerman was severely beaten. Your words are inconsistent with what you stated previously is what I am saying now. You didn't allow for facts (which are truths to claims) to surface if there are any.

Also "better evidence"? You aren't remaining impartial as you said you were. That report isn't good enough evidence proving Zimmerman's claim. Bolstered evidence from his medical reports, even the EMT reports, would be sufficient as I have been saying all along. And it isn't a matter of me saying that Zimmerman was in the wrong, rather Zimmerman is failing to prove his innocence.

jim hardy
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i have no emotional need to win.

"We accept certain unlovely things about ourselves and manage to live with them. The atonement for such an acceptance is that we make allowances for others - that we cleanse ourselves of the sin of self-righteousness." eric hoffer

Back on topic, Zimmerman has gone into hiding because of the shakiness of an emotional society we live in today that would rather shoot before proving. Looks as if peng. was right, $10k is being offered by a racist party known as, The Black Panthers, to find Zimmerman and bring him to justice. mheslep Gold Member ...$10k is being offered by a racist party known as, The Black Panthers, to find Zimmerman and bring him to justice.