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The Dividing Universe

  1. Dec 8, 2008 #1
    I have no idea of the math behind this idea but I thought it was interesting to think about.

    Say we have a universe like our own in that,and that the following are true:

    a.Galaxy that are not close enough to have strong gravitational force to each other are moving away from eachother at an expanding rate.
    b. In some distant time, the clumps of galaxies are so far apart that the acceleration seems to exceed c, ei. that light can no longer be seen of other galaxy clusters, therefore only an observer could only know of there own galaxy cluster.
    c. Eventually, gravity overcomes the matter and space in the area is contracted to a singularity.

    Little Bang

    Could the universe just simple continue dividing itself it smaller and smaller clumps of matter?

    I see a few problems with this of course. That the big bang was an explosion of space not in space. But it it possible perhaps that within a larger universe a portion of it is contracted to a singularity, or does that not make sense?
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 8, 2008 #2
    interesting idea, given enough time a gravitationally bound cluster of galaxies might colapse under their own gravity and form a supermasive black hole? is that a possible scenario for the future of the universe?
  4. Mar 19, 2009 #3
    If universe continue expand at accelerating rate then galaxies will be far enough and gravity between galaxies too weak to pull it together again. Therefore, galaxies will get bigger and bigger and then gravity of individual galaxies win and pull matter back to massive black hole and singularity. We may have millions of universes rather one. Each galaxy will become an independent universe. With this theory there may be infinite number of universe already and we are just adding more and more to it.
  5. Mar 19, 2009 #4


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    Your points a and b are essetially true, as far as we know. I'm not sure about point c, but I think that black holes will evaporate before they all merge into a single, giant black hole.
    Whatever, after the last black hole has been created, it will evaporate sloooowly, and that's it. No new universe - again, as far as we know.
  6. Mar 19, 2009 #5
    Hawking radiation from black holes are very tiny compared to adding more mass and more particles falling into it. blackholes keep getting bigger as galaxies expand and universe expand. as galaxies getting farther apart and their mass increased proportionally then galaxies will reach a balance point where matter is no longer created and therefore, start shrinking slowly to a point where a big crunch of galaxies into their core black hole, each galaxy will form singularities and those singularities willl follow with big bang and new universes created as a result. one universe divided into millions, each galaxy now is a universe.
  7. Mar 20, 2009 #6
    Note that super-massive black holes will NEVER evaporate: their radiation will be less intensive then the incoming flow of the thermal radiation from the cosmological horizon (about 10^-33K)
  8. Mar 20, 2009 #7
    e=mc*2 tells it all. neither energy nor matter can be destroyed.they just change form infinitely,therefore, universe will divide eventually as galaxies spread too far. and eventually each galaxy will shrink due to gravititional pull of their black holes and big crunch to follow in each galaxy separately. currently there is millions of galaxies in our universe. that means due to expansion of universe at very fast rate there will be millions of big crunch then millions of big bangs and millions of independent universe at the end. there maybe infinite number of universes now and we are just adding more to it since matter cant be destroyed and it keeps growing forever non-stop
  9. Mar 20, 2009 #8
    I would say, 60% of the above is correct
    1. There are some problems when energy conservation laws are applied to the whole Universe. For example, when Unierse size *10, the volume increases by 1000, and the density of matter decreases by the factor of 1000. But (surprise!) the density of radiation decreases by 10000: the density of photons decreases by 1000 plus each photon becomes 10 times 'redder' -> 10 times less energy. You you check this, there are many articles about GR and eneryg conseration in it.
    2. Yes, some matter can fall in the black holes inside the galaxies. Other matter simply evaporates into space in different forms (light, neutrinos, gas, isolated stars) and become too far from the black holes to be consumed.
    3. Finally, big bang inside a blach hole is a pure speculation
  10. Mar 20, 2009 #9
    the black holes, given enough time will simply evaporate due to hawking radiation untill eventually nothing will exist.
  11. Mar 20, 2009 #10
    only small size blackholes evaporate thru billions of yrs. massive giant black holes at center of galaxies will never evaporate. they will feed on stars and other particles and eventually blackholes gravitational pull cause big crunch in every galaxy. universe will divide as a result and there will be only massive black holes left at the end. and eventually these black holes will cause a big bang due to extensive energy stored in singularity. each big bang will create a new universe and independent of each other without any gravitational attraction to eachother. there maybe infinite number of universes and it will keep adding on and on non-stop. E=mc*2 proofs that nothing is destroyed matter changes to energy in black holes then energy explodes and creates new matters. cycle will go on forever. it is called oscillating universe. repeats itself but in different sizes due to division. just think of one tree can create 100s of similar trees due to expansion of their seeds by rain washing their seeds and growing further away from original tree.
  12. Mar 20, 2009 #11
    Do you have a mathematical framework to support that view? Somehow I suspect not.

    but then e=mc2 proofs it.....

    actually... isn't it one of Newtons laws that proofs that nothing can be destroyed?
  13. Mar 20, 2009 #12
    do the math and proof is there in einstein equations, that nothing can be destroyed . it just change form. energy converts to mass and mass converts to energy forever. oscillating universe. But our universe expanded so rapidly recently and our galaxies too far apart that it cant be stopped now. universe will continue to expand and galaxies drift apart until we wont be able to see light coming from other galaxies. eventually when galaxies are far apart then these galaxies will become independent of eachother. once that happens then giant blackholes of each galaxy will pull back stars and win over dark energy, blackholes will become larger and larger as it pulls stars toward it. once it is super super giant blackhole then a big crunch will happen in every galaxy independently. and what is left of universe are millions of massive giant blackholes far far apart. these super giant massive blackhole will be too far to attract eachother and gravity will have no efffect on one another. super massive blackholes will eventually explode due to stored energy from matters that fallen into it and cause a big bang and create a new universe. we have millions of galaxies so we will have millions of new born universes independent of one another. life will form again after billions of yrs and then die back after billions of yrs and all-over again. this process will go on forever. since nothing can be destroyed not even information. all information will come back to next generation of universes and so on forever. it will repeat itself at different space and time forever.
  14. Mar 21, 2009 #13
    That is some interesting speculation !
  15. Mar 21, 2009 #14
    Black holes can not "eventually explode"
    It is a total BS until you defined EXACTLY what doyou mean by it.
    Hint:thay can not explode to the outer space. If you are talking about the singualrity, then it had already happened... well, its more difficult, the inner regions of BH are in another flow of time, so 'now' is not applicable to what happens inside.
  16. Mar 22, 2009 #15
    Matter falling in blackholes converted to energy and is compacted densely. this energy neither escapes nor evaporates due to enormous BH gravitational pull that not even information can escape. Once entire matter of a galaxy or galaxies fallen into central BH. then BH with enormous pressure can not hold energy no longer since no matter to exert outer forces to BH to hold it from bursting. then BH will perform a big bang and in matter of seconds its entire energy burst into billions of light yr space and form new universe. stephen hawking proved this theory. refer to his calculations about origin of big bang. Big bang was originated from BH.
  17. Mar 22, 2009 #16
    1. Contre-intuitively, in GR enormous pressure *increases* the gravitation and make the 'explosion' more difficult
    2. We dont have a theory of singularity (we need to wait for superstrings/quantum loop gravity) so we even dont know if 'pressure' is applicable to the singularity
    3. Finally, no matter how pressure is high it can not push matter outside the black hole: I suspect you think that pressure can somehow 'overcome' gravity when it is strong. No, it can not: the spacetime is organized the way so 'future' for all objects inside the horizon is in the singularity. So any 'eventually in the future' for anything inside the horizon is in the singularity and never outside!
  18. Mar 22, 2009 #17
    universe is balanced, stars pull on black holes and black holes pull on stars and balances the space time and everything is intact without falling apart. But all stars fall into BH due to BH gravity win. Then there is a vacuum outside BH. And BH exert Gravity force to space time without counter force , therefore, BH causes a big bang and in matter of one second creates new universe and new stars. BH is a storage facility for galaxies it stores entire data and info and total energy that fallen into it. According to einstein equation nothing can be destroyed. everything changes form from matter to energy then from energy to matter always forever. We have an oscilating universe where it repeat itself at different time and space, remember information never gets destroyed so if you are john doe genetic code today expect coming back in the next universe under same dna and roots. only change will be space time. for example if you live in america today then there is possibility you may be in germany or different location in future universe. space time does not remain same. but your genetic code and family roots remain the same
  19. Mar 22, 2009 #18
    What a meaningless spagetti of modern concepts :)
  20. Mar 22, 2009 #19
    it is not meaningless you just dont have the brain einstein had to digest this theory. This theory i mentioned it the truth and proven by many scientists including einstein and stephen awking. Do you research and math and then you will see that we live in an oscillating universe that repeats itself forever and as well it expands too due to space time conditions. in todays universe it is expanding so future will be not one universe but multiple or many. Expansion is caused randomly in each oscillation cycle. what you see today around you expect to be in future universe as well but in different time and space. Imagine if you live poor and you next life in next universe you maybe opposite of poor that is rich. it happens since you have gained experience and learned from your mistakes, so when you die and convert to energy all your data and experiences are stored in central black hole of milky way. and when future universe is born then your data will be coming reality and you will reborn with same dna and genetic code but better life style since you have learned from your mistakes and you wont repeat failures. universe repeat itself to perfect itself and it will go on forever non-stop. Universe is on automatic switch it works all alone by laws of physics and other laws that we have not discovered yet. physics laws are not the only law but one of them.
  21. Mar 22, 2009 #20
    You made my day :) This is a part of the fun, why I amreading this forum.
    Now the interesting part, I am waiting fro the direct quotes from Einstein and Hawking. Or you have to assume that everything is just your fantasy.

    Dont post a quote to E=mc^2 pls, you need to post links to their works supporting your view. For example, a place where Einstein claimed that the theory of the forever rebouncing universe is a truth, et cetera.
  22. Mar 22, 2009 #21
    do the math and search and you will find links and proof of my posts. remember when you die you will not be lost forever. your information and data is transfered into central BH of galaxy and stored there. and when BH bursts and bing bang happens your information and data will be thrown out to space and in right time and space you will reappear in same environment but different space/time. each cycle is not same as prior, since new cycle will perfect itself due to experiences stored. lets say before you die you gained alot of life experience and if you happened to appear again in future universe you will repeat your mistakes. your brain automatically will not repeat mistakes done in past universe. you maynot know it but your unconscience part of your brain is aware and is programmed to do better without you knowing it consciensely.
  23. Mar 22, 2009 #22
    do the math and search you will find links and proofs of my posts. remember when you die you will not be lost forever. your information and data is transferred into central BH of galaxy and stored, and when BH bursts and big bang happens your information and data will be thrown out into space. you will reappear in same environment but different space/time. each cycle is not same as prior, since new cycle will try to correct its deficiencies due to experiences earned in past cycle. lets say before you die you gained much of life experience and if you happened to appear again in future universe then you will not repeat your past mistakes. your brain automatically will not repeat mistakes done in past universe. you may not know it but your unconscience mind is aware and programmed to do better without you knowing it consciously. Matter never get lost. it converts to energy due to enviromental reasons. And if environment is right again then energy reappears as matter thru evolutionary process.
  24. Mar 23, 2009 #23
    That makes sense - I am your future copy, stored in the black hole and reappeared in a form of a ghost from Bermuda's triangle in the UFO. So that future copy is asking you to stop making mistakes like writing such posts. If you have any doubts that I am in fact your future copy, do the math and search you will find links :)
  25. Mar 23, 2009 #24
    take my word, you will never br destroyed . you die and your data send to blackhole for storage and after big bang you reborn in new universe different time and space. life is continous forever. it is oscilating. you could be an engineer in one life cycle and a doctor in next. but your dna and genetic code remains the same.good luck in understanding this theory. hope you do and be happy that you dont die forever it is temporary and you will be back in next universe.
  26. Apr 1, 2009 #25
    “One of the most important numbers in physics is the electro magnetic coupling constant which defines the strength of the electro-magnetic field. It is a dimensionless number independent of how we define our units of mass, length, time or electric charge. A change in these units of measurement leaves the dimensionless constant unchanged.”
    definition by by Hans de Vries

    When viewing a black hole u are observing it from the perspective of this universe with its fine structure mark at 137. in a situation where the expansion or contraction of matter is altered, like between galaxies and in black holes, the laws of physics that we know may do no longer apply. the the laws of physic's in a black hole are different because the electro magnetic coupling between particles are at a different value or intensity. Don't judge a black hole based on the laws of this universe, it is a different universe with different laws. U only see what escapes.

    When contemplating the universe, expansion, contraction, don't forget as that new particles are found all the time, at some level the universe is growing feeding on itself and creating new particles for the next stage of growth. Just like the in Sun.
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