Is the Dream as Real as Reality?

[elwestrand]

hi

I never thought of illusion. I don't believe in it. Everyhting is "real," but in a way that does not imply that some things are illusion. Reality exists at different levels. Birth and death may be considered two sides of the came coin, but what really unties the knot of fear is realizing that the self has never come into existence, not being an incidence in time, it is no subject to complete termination. Your physical death may be death to you, to the degree to which you are attached to your situation in life, your memories and so on. In otherwords, there is a real reason to fear death for those who do so merely because most of what they consider themselves will die. Similarly, a non lucid dream self cannot comprehend that it exists outside of the dream and that it will contine after the dream- It cannot distinguish between the dream and what you know as reality when you wake up. The dream is not illusion, it is very real to the dream self, but actual reality has a relative superiority to dream reality.

 

[Polly]

hi

Let us confine our discussion to this point for the tme being. You are saying:

1. There are different levels of existence.
2. Feelings are real at any of these levels.
3. The self as such has never come to existence.
4. There is therefore no nexus between one level of existence and another.

Conclusion: so "what unties the knot of fear (of death) is that the self has never come to existence".

I agree with you on points 1 and 2 and 3. I disagree with you on point 4.

I believe that there IS a nexus between one level of existence and another in the absence of the self, such that what you do in this state will affect the circumstance in the next state and therefore what feelings "someone" has to go through .

What I am afraid of is causing a bundle of REAL feelings (in terms of pain, grieve, acute anger etc) for "someone" to go through in his/her level of existence.

You might say who cares who is suffering as long as it's not me. But then you never existed before you were born so how can you say definitively the legacy will not find its way to you?

As David Bohm says, "n the implicate order the totality of existence is enfolded within each region of space (and time). So whatever part, element, or aspect we may abstract in thought, this still enfolds the whole and is therefore intrinsically related to the totality from which it has been abstracted. Thus, wholeness permeates all that is being discussed, from the very outset."

(Lifework of quantum physicist David Bohm by Will Keepin)

 

[R0man]

I appreciate your perspective on the idea of illusion and reality. I agree that everything is "real" in its own way and that reality exists at different levels. Dreams may not be considered illusions because they are very real to the dream self, but as you mentioned, there is a distinction between dream reality and actual reality. It is interesting to think about how our attachment to our memories and situation in life can affect our perception of death. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic.