Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

The French Betrayal of America

  1. Mar 17, 2004 #1

    kat

    User Avatar

    "The French Betrayal of America"

    An interesting Op Ed:

    THE FRENCH WAR FOR OIL
    Read the whole thing...
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 17, 2004 #2
    Nonsense.
     
  4. Mar 17, 2004 #3
    Why? Both Russia and France had public contracts setup to go in effect the moment sanctions were dropped.

    As for the US's interest in oil, there is none when it comes to the oil itself. IT means nothing. We don't need the oil. However, others do, and spreading that oil out amongst countries, as well as being a key buyer in it means keeping up with the geopolitical power.
    This is also the only reason we don't change infrastructures right now to an alternate fuel.
     
  5. Mar 17, 2004 #4

    kat

    User Avatar

    An informative reply as always, Zero. What would we do without your highly educated responses.[zz)]
     
  6. Mar 17, 2004 #5
    First off, France didn't "betray" America...

    Secondly, showing that France has interest in Iraqi oil doesn't prove that America doesn't also want that oil.

    Thirdly, it is a NY Post opinion piece, which means it has little value when compared to reality.
     
  7. Mar 17, 2004 #6
    That's a good explanation as to why France opposed the war in Iraq, but the opposition from so many other countries still needs to be explained. I'd like to offer a few:

    - Germany supported Saddam because, as the American media has it, he's the new Hitler. Heil Hussein!
    - Russia was against the war because they smuggled Iraqi oil to send bored American tycoons to space.
    - Canadians didn't want to invade Iraq because they were too busy planning their annual invasion of Florida.

    The world gets really complicated when you try to divide it into people who are on your side and people who are on the side of your enemies. It doesn't seem to occur to some Americans that people do not like to go to war, especially when, in their perception, there's no reason whatsoever for it.
     
  8. Mar 17, 2004 #7
    Actually, most of teh world disagrees with America that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11, or terrorism in general, which the evidence so far backs up. I know it is hard for some people to see the issues as different, but most of us do. Afghanistan was one thing, Iraq was a completely different animal.
     
  9. Mar 17, 2004 #8

    Nereid

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    So I guess you can show us that the US' oil needs for the next 25 years or so can be met with what, oil from Saudi Arabia? From Siberia? North Korea (thanks kat)?? From the Alaskan wilderness??

    AFAIK, the country #1 in a league table of those whose oil needs are both large and growing fast is China. Hmm, how many troops did they send to topple Saddam?

    Finally, remind me again where most of the 9/11 terrorists came from? And why that regime has managed to get away with its tacit support for the ideologues behind the terrorists? After all, didn't the US government do a great deal to oppose the Soviet Union, its proxies, and the ideologues behind 'communism'? Why is W*****ism any different??
     
  10. Mar 17, 2004 #9
    I love how this always gets brought up, is it an attempt to change the topic? Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see anyone referencing the 9/11 or terrorism even in the most vague sense.

    Saddam Hussein was a corrupt dictator and a war criminal. His oppression of his people is only now beginning to be fully realized now that he is gone. It is obvious that war was the only way to remove him from his throne. Personally, I don't care if we did it for the oil, the media, or to appeal to our own cold-blooded thirst for destruction. The fact is that it needed to happen a long time ago and I'm glad we finally did it. I just wish we would pay this much attention to some of the other countries that need help like Iraq does. Oh yah... wish we would get the hell out of Iraq now that he's gone too... that's what really pisses me off.

    As far as the actual topic of this thread.. I agree with Zero that France isn't necessarily doing anything unspeakable here. I mean this is just politics people. Dirty under-the-counter stuff like this happens every time you blink your eyes. Right now at this very moment, Rumsfield is taking a bath in C-notes he got out of the same war that cost France their alleged under-the-counter arrangement. If we're going to point the finger at France we have to clean up our own government first.
     
  11. Mar 17, 2004 #10

    Nereid

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    So many dictators, so few bullets .

    What's the calculation to be made about who to depose and who to coddle? Scope - time, geography - of the slaughter? Why leave the Congo alone for so long? 'Illegality' of occupation? Why reward Sharon then? Sheer gall in ignoring a democratic election? Off to Yangon we go!
     
  12. Mar 18, 2004 #11

    FZ+

    User Avatar

    Now is not a long time ago. Now is a long time after most of the alleged crimes took place, at a point where human rights organisations, who had been campaigning about Iraq for years are advising against the war. Now is a time where the majority of human rights organisations are concluding that the situation in Iraq is stablising, getting better, and diplomacy was the key, not demolition. The Neo-cons have essentially hijacked the point, and wiped out the actuality of what their sources say. The graveyards they parade were often from before the first gulf war, and as a result of the invasion, brand new graveyards are being dug.

    Get out now that he is gone? Are you MAD? If the US had opted for the (unwise) path of demolition and rebuilding, you don't just stop half way. You need to stablise the situation as soon as you can, and deploy a government the people of Iraq are compatible with, and restablish Iraq's links to the rest of the world - and that includes France, Germany and so on, or else leave Iraq as a parasite of the US for many, many years to come.

    There are two ways to end sanctions - peacefully, and through war. One of the first things the US did when they went in was to petition for the removal of sanctions.

    I see that talking about the complexities of politics in terms of "betrayal" is very very sophisticated. Didn't you tell us some time ago how you ignore media opinions and instead collate factual sources to make your own conclusions? Practice what you preach.
     
  13. Mar 18, 2004 #12

    Njorl

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    The French government acting in its own selfish interests is no more a betrayal than the US government acting in its own selfish interest. If the French wanted to invade Saudi Arabia and overthrow its unelected and oppressive ruler, would we support them? Just because the despot the French were in bed with was more odious than the despots we are in bed with does not make them betrayers.

    And yes, the French were in bed with Saddam. They and the Russians did not just want to avert war, they had been working ardently to keep him in power since the first Gulf war.

    Njorl
     
  14. Mar 18, 2004 #13

    GENIERE

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    Not only were the French in bed with Saddam, it seems the UN was also. It is suspected that Saddam’s oil money now lines the pockets of high-ranking UN officials, perhaps even Annan since he made the appointments. The UN does not allow external audits, obviously that needs to be changed.
     
  15. Mar 18, 2004 #14

    Nereid

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    By whom? Do these 'high-ranking UN officials' include US citizens? Have the suspicions been reported to the relevant police authorities?
     
  16. Mar 18, 2004 #15

    GENIERE

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    I choose a liberal news source, The Guardian, but there’s a lot more out there.

    “The so-called oil list has already caused worldwide embarrassment, with allegations made against prominent people and companies in France, Russia, Switzerland and South Africa, as well as employees at the UN.”
     
  17. Mar 18, 2004 #16
    Well for starters, there's the billions missing from the oil for food program.
    http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=70ED90E5-64E9-4400-A68FED5D3E38FF94

    All signs point to the French and UN corruption. All money was funneled through a French bank, which even right now, holds the balance of about 17 billion. Oddly, no one sees the conflict of interest between a private bank holding billions, someone* drawing interest for the longer the money is tied up and held there.
    * I say someone, because even more oddly, all information about the interest created, where it's going, and the exact figures in the bank are unknown to anyone but the bank itself (and the privy few that are in on the scheme). You can't control the money flow, have money go missing, and then claim to not know what happened (well you can, but you can go talk to Enron's previous leaders about what happens then)
     
  18. Mar 19, 2004 #17

    Nereid

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Do these "employees at the UN" include US citizens?

    AFAIK, the behaviour to which the reports in GENIERE's and phatmonky's links allude is illegal in the US. Has Eliot Spitzer begun investigations? What about John Ashcroft?
     
  19. Mar 19, 2004 #18

    kat

    User Avatar

    1. I don't believe it's limited to UN employees
    2. The list follows
    3. There appears to be all types of connections and cross connections including connections to Scott Ritter and Kofi Annan's son.
    4. This could make Enron look mild.
    5. As far as the United States it's being investigated by a Congressional oversight committee and the General Accounting Office. The UN is saying it will also investigate but..it seems to me that is a bit like trusting Enron to investigate itself..:wink:
    6. I almost think..not absolutely sure that it is going before the security council to decide how to best proceed with an investigation..maybe today or tomorrow.

    7. Here is the list that set it all in motion:

    http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA16404

     
  20. Mar 19, 2004 #19

    kat

    User Avatar

    France
    1. ADDAX 8.3 million
    2. Trafigura Patrick Maugein 25 million
    3. Michel Grimard 17 million
    4. Franco-Iraqi Friendship 15.1 million
    5. Ayix 47.2 million
    6. Charles Pasqua 12 million
    7. Alias Al-Gharzali 14.6 million
    8. IOTC (Claude Caspert) 4 million
    9. Jean-Bernard Merimee 3 million
    10. Jean-Bernard Merimee 8 million
    11. de Souza 11 million

    Hungary
    1. Hungarian Interest Party 4.7 million

    India
    1. Biham Singh 5.5 million
    2. Indian Congress Party 4 million

    Indonesia
    1. Daughter of President Sukarno 2 million
    2. Hawa Atlantic 2 million
    3. Makram Hakim 3 million
    4. Megawati 8 million
    5. Muhammad Amin Rayyis 4 million
    6. Natuna Oil 2 million

    Ireland
    1. Riyadh Al-Taher 11 million
    2. Afro-Eastern 2 million

    Italy
    1. Roberto Formigoni 24.5 million
    2. Salvatore Nicotra 20 million
    3. Mr. Feloni 6.5 million
    4. Father Benjamin 4.5 million
    5. West Petrol 2 tons
    6. Hetralk 2 tons
    7. IPS (Italian Petroleum Assoc.) 1 million

    Jordan
    1. Leith Shbeilat 15.5 million
    2. Fakhri Qa'war 6 million
    3. Grand Resource 2 million
    4. Al-Rashid International (Ahmad Al-Bashir) 9 million
    5. Fawwaz Zuraiqat 6 million
    6. Salem Al-Na'*** 3 million
    7. Zayyad Al-Ragheb 7 million
    8. Mashhur Haditha 4 million
    9. Shaker bin Zayd 6.5 million
    10. Muhammad Saleh Al-Hourani 4 million
    11. Tojan Faisal 3 million
    12. Ministry of Energy (Jordan) 5 million
    13. Zayyad Yaghmour 2 million
    14. Wamidh Hussein 1 million

    Kenya
    1. Muhammad Othman Sa'id 10.5 million

    Lebanon
    2. Fadi Al-Alamiyya (International)2 million
    3. Haitham Seidani 2 million
    4. Plant [Blunt?] Petroleum 1 million
    5. George Tarkhaynan 7 million
    6. President Lehoud's son 4.5 million
    7. Ali To'ma 1 million
    8. Al-Hilal Co. (Adnan Al-Hanani) 1 million
    9. International Company for Trade and Investment 3 million
    10. Faisal Darniqa 3 million
    11. Fim Oil Company 1 million
    12. Najah Wakim 3 million
    13. Osama Ma'rouf 3 million
    14. Zuhair Al-Khatib 3.5 million

    Libya

    1. Shukri Ghanem 6 million

    Malaysia
    1. Fa'iq Ahmad Sharif 12.5 million
    2. Pitmall Company 4 million
    3. Trader Babar 4 million
    4. Mastek (Fa'iq Ahmad Sharif0 57 million
    5. Hawala 7 million

    Myanmar Federation [Burma]
    1. Minister of Forestry 5 million

    Morocco
    1. Abdallah Al-Sallawi 7.2 million
    2. Nadhel Al-Hashemi 5.7 million
    3. Muhammad Al-Basri 4.5 million

    Netherlands
    1. Sy Bolt 3 million

    Nigeria
    1. Hayson 7.2 million
    2. Raz Company 7.5 million
    3. A.A.G. Company (Nigerian Ambassador) 1 million
    4. Comeback 4 million

    Oman
    1. Shanfari Group 5 million

    Palestine
    1. Abu Al-Abbas 11.5 million
    2. Abdullah Al-Hourani 8 million
    3. Wafa Tawfiq Sa'igh 3.5 million
    4. Liberation Organization 4 million
    5. Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine 5 million
    6. Liberation Organization (Political Bureau) 5 million

    Pakistan
    1. Oil & Gas Group 10 tons
    2. Abu Abd Al-Rahman 11.5 tons
    3. Sayyed Azzaz 1 ton

    Panama
    1. Sevan 11.5 million

    Philippines
    1. Philippines Production Group 3 million

    Qatar
    1. Hamad bin Ali Al-Thani 14 million
    2. The Duleimy Group 4 million
    3. Gulf Petroleum 2 million
    4. Petrolina Oil 2 million
    5. Petroleum Wells Maintenance 2 million

    Romania
    1. Delf Aderlink 1 million
    2. Romanian Labor Party 5.5 million

    Russia
    1. The Russian State 1.366 billion
    2. Zarubesneft 174.5 million
    3. Russneft Ampex 86.9 million (for the office of the president, including 1 million to Mr. Tetzenko, Russian Ambassador to Baghdad)
    4. Communist Party Companies 137 million
    5. Amircom (Unity Party/ Ministry for Emergencies) 57 million
    6. Mishinoimport 1 million
    7. Al-Fayco (Russian Foreign Ministry) 128.8 million
    8. Yatumin (Russian Foreign Ministry) 30.1 million
    9. Slavneft 25.5 million
    10. Zan Gaz 49.1 million
    11. Rosneft Company 35.5 million
    12. Caspian Investment 8.5 million
    13. Kamaneft Company 7.5 million
    14. Gasprom 26 million
    15. Tatneft 1 million
    16. LUKoil 63 million
    17. Surgut Neftegas 4 million
    18. Siberia Oil & Gas company 1 million
    19. Nafta Moscow Company 25.1 million
    20. Onaco Company 22.2 million
    21. Sidanco Company 21.2 million
    22. Sibneft 8.1 million
    23. Transneft 9 million
    24. Yukos 2 million
    25. Liberal Democratic Party (Zhirinovsky) 79.8 million
    26. Peace and Unity Party 34 million (the list mentions party chairwoman Sazhi Umalatova)
    27. Russian Committee of Solidarity with the People of Iraq 6.5 million (its chair, Sergei Rudasev is mentioned)
    28. Russian Association for Solidarity with Iraq 12.5 million (its chair, [Zhorafilon] is listed)
    29. Russneft-Gazexport 12.5 million
    30. Uralinvest (Stroyev) 8.5 million
    31. Moscow Science Academy 3.5 million
    32. Romain (son of former ambassador to Baghdad) 19.7 million
    33. Zarabsneft (Gobkin University) 3.5 million
    34. Nordvest Group) 2 million
    35. Zarbshneft & Gas (Mr. Hassan) 3 million (only one million delivered)
    36. Soyuzneftgaz (Yuri Shafrannik) 25.5 million
    37. Nikolayi Ryzhkov 13 million
    38. Stroyneftgas 6 million
    39. Akht Neft Company 4.5 million
    40. Chechna Administration 2 million
    41. 'Adel Al-Jablawi (I.N.M. Airways) 6 million
    42. Khrozolit 5 million
    43. Trader Nafta 3 million
    44. Chief of the President's Bureau 5 million
    45. Russian Orthodox Church 5 million
    46. Russian National Democratic Party 3 million

    Saudi Arabia
    1. Najah Company 3 million
    2. Asiss Company 2 million

    Slovakia
    1. Slovak Communist Party 1 million

    South Africa
    1. Imvume Management (Sandy Majali) 9 million
    2. Tokyo Saxwele Holdings (MVL) 4 million
    3. Montega 4 million
    4. Omni Oil 4 million

    Spain

    1. Bassim Qaqish 17.5 million
    2. Javier Robert 9.8 million
    3. Ali Balutt 8.8 million

    Sudan
    1. Samasu 8 million
    2. Petroleum Products Co. 2 tons
    3. Oil Plus 2 tons

    Switzerland
    1. Media 2 million
    2. Delta Service 2 million
    3. Iblom 1 million
    4. Sipol 1 million
    5. Glencore 12 million
    6. Lakia 2 million
    7. Elkon [or Elcon] 23 million
    8. Taurus 8 million
    9. Petrogas 5 million
    10. Finar [Holdings] 21 million
    11. Napex Company 3 million

    Syria
    1. Awadh Ammura 18 million+
    2. Beshara Nuri 12 million+
    3. Ghassan Shallah 11 million
    4. Muhammad Amar Nofel 3.5 million
    5. Tamam Shehab 1 million
    6. Hamida Na'na' 9 million+
    7. Farras Mustapha Tlass 6 million
    8. Salim Al-Toon 3.5 million
    9. Lutfi Fawzi 2.5 million
    10. Lid Guarantees 3.5 million
    11. Ghassan Zacharia 6 million
    12. Muhammad Ma'moun Al-Sab'i 4 million
    13. Hassan Al-Kayal 2 million
    14. Anwar Al-Aqqad 2 million

    Thailand
    1. Thai Rice Trader Jaiporn 1 million

    Tunisia
    1. Madex Petroleum 6.7 million
    2. Farnaco 3.7 million
    3. Maydor 4 million

    Turkey
    1. Zayn Al-Abideen Ardam 27 million+
    2. Lutfi Dughan 1 million+
    3. Muhammad Aslan 13 million
    4. Techfen 15.5 million
    5. KCK Company 1.5 million
    6. Delta Petroleum 1 million
    7. Sita 1 million
    8. Ozia 2.5 million
    9. Samir 2 million
    10. Muhtashem 2 million
    11. Maqdar Sarjeen 2 million

    Ukraine
    1. Social Democratic Party 8.5 million
    2. Ukraine Communist Party 6 million
    3. Energy Resources 2 million
    4. Fazmash Ampex 2 million
    5. Neftogas 8 million
    6. Hugh Company (Sokolov) 5 million
    7. Orshansky 4.5 million
    8. Fideralty Torkovy 1 million
    9. Trans Isko 1 million
    10. The Ukranian House 1 million
    11. F.T.D. 2 million
    12. Socialist Party of Ukraine 2 million

    United Arab Emirates
    1. Fal Petrol 1.8 million
    2. Ahmad Mani' Sa'id Al-Utaiba 11 million
    3. Jewan Oil 7.5 million
    4. Sultan bin Zayed Al-Nahyan 4 million
    5. Al-Huda 22.9 million
    6. Issa bin Zayed Al-Nahyan 5 million
    7. Millenium 2 tons
    8. Bony Fiol 1 ton

    United Kingdom
    1. George Galloway/Nawwaf Zuraiqat 19 million
    2. Mujahideen Khalq 36.5 million

    U.S.A.
    1. Shaker Al-Khaffaji 7 million
    2. Samir Vincent 10.5 million

    Vietnam
    1. Vinapco 1.2 million
    2. Darlink Med 2 million
    3. Vinafod 6 million
    4. O.S.C. 2 tons

    Yemen
    1. Abd Al-Karim Al-Aryani 7.8 million
    2. Tawfiq Abd Al-Raheem 1.5 million
    3. Shaher Abd Al-Haq 7 million+

    Yugoslavia

    1. Socialist Party 22 million
    2. Left Party 9.5 million
    3. Italian Party 16 million
    4. Kokostancha Party 9 million
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
  21. Mar 19, 2004 #20

    Njorl

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    I don't want to jump to conclusions about this. A lot of people have an anti-UN agenda. It could easily be a case of convenient mis-interpretation of records.

    However, if it is true, it is one of the most heinous international scandals in human history. Consider the consequences of this if it is true:

    -The UN official administering the program resigned in protest because 4000-5000 Iraqi children were dying each month of issues related to malnutrition and lack of medical supplies.

    -The UN issued a report of finding that there was an anomolous increase in the death rate of Iraqis of 90,000 (7500/month) per year during the program. The program was in place for 100 months. The people taking bribes were complicit in up to 750,000 murders.

    -The use of sanctions has been completely discredited. No humanitarian provisions can possibly be accepted anymore. From now on, when faced with a dictator behaving unacceptably to the world at large, the choices are war and nothing.

    The people taking these bribes were taking human lives on a massive scale. They have also made the world a more unstable place for at least a generation.
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?



Similar Discussions: The French Betrayal of America
  1. French Betrayal of NATO (Replies: 19)

  2. French Hostages (Replies: 42)

  3. America's shame (Replies: 9)

  4. Fascist America (Replies: 52)

  5. The French PRISM (Replies: 3)

Loading...