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The Great Firewall of China

  1. Jul 12, 2005 #1
    http://www.slate.com/id/2122270/

    So what does the future hold for a country of > 1 billion people who are not allowed to express their views? This so-called "Great Firewall of China" is well-known for filtering out subversive www sites from the entire country, as well as tracking dissent.

    It has often been said that free markets demand freedom, and freedom demands free markets - the idea being that democracy and capitalism are both sides of the same coin. As China moves closer to a market-based economy, will democratic reforms progress? And if so, will this historically fragmented country remain held together under one roof?

    In an age where the tendency is for everyone to become more interconnected (whether it be the internet or the international community), how can a nation progress while censoring internet discussion?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 12, 2005 #2
    We're still here. Must agree though, only because we're smart. Smart enough to F*** echelon.
     
  4. Jul 12, 2005 #3
    Well, we have to recognise that this firewall is creating an enviroment where hackers flourish. The reason why chinese hackers are so common these days is at least partly because if you want to do anything you have to get past a government system to do it first.
     
  5. Jul 12, 2005 #4
    Anyway what do the typical chinese citizens feel about this. Most chinese nationals that i have met are quite happy with their government. I would like to know if this sentiment is typical.
     
  6. Jul 12, 2005 #5
    i would be shocked if you were to hear dissent on the internet from within china, the reason being the subject of this thread.

    Most Germans were also quite happy with Hitler. National culture has it's own personality - some things that are valued to one person may not be valued to another. It is my understanding that individuality and self-expression are not traits that are valued in chinese culture - and yet self-expression is becoming popular as their own economy becomes more tightly integrated with the western-dominated global economy.

    Here is what I am asking:

    1) China is firmly on a path toward global capitalism.
    2) Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand. Unless the government goes to extreme measures, one necessarily leads to the other.

    BUT how can democracy be possible if the people are unable to openly criticize their government? China is fearful of doing so because they have relied upon totalitarian measures to keep their country together - to become an open society is to invite ruin, in their leaders eyes. Is this actually the case?

    Can they actually, in the long run, have their cake and eat it too (that is, enjoy the fruits of a capital system in full swing without experiencing the dissent and disintegration of china)?
     
  7. Jul 12, 2005 #6
    Godwin's law. Quetz loses.
     
  8. Jul 12, 2005 #7
    I can't help but point out a few things that seem to fly in the face of what you presume to be true.

    All the countries of the world are embracing China as a point of manufacturing operations, not because it is democratic but because it is basically fascist and denies people most of the rights you prize.

    Capitalism and manufacturing do not flourish in a democracy but within a fascist mold.

    As far as Germany was concerned, why was it that this relatively small bankrupt country from the middle of Europe was able to threaten the security of the rest of Europe, North Africa and the USSR? Look at the products they used and developed! The tanks, the planes, the rockets etc.

    Anybody taking a REALLY close look at Japan and the 'ecconomic miracle' will be hard pressed to recognize 'democracy' in the way of doing business and their treatment of employees is far more 'stringent' than the socialist style of management enforced by the government of America. They did, in fact, augment much of their management style from Bushido which finds its roots in Confucianism... the way of Chinese 'civil service'.

    No, I am afraid that if you look at the world's gratest democracies, you will find them without exception pathetic in their record of manufacturing and business ... even agriculture. (Cheese mountains and the french burning sheep in the streets)

    The USA gains it's power and success not from a 'new improved ideology' but from an accident of geography. Were it not for the fact that America has always had the world's biggest moat, the Atlantic and the Pacific, America would have been placed in a position of the rest of the world having to rebuild after two world wars as well.

    As it was, the world ... all except for America which was untouched and the world looked to America to supply them with the necessities until the systems were back on-line in the rest of the world.

    Look at the UK. When it gave up its ownership rights in the rest of the world and embraced democratic 'labour' after the war ... it didn't so much spiral as plummet.

    Also remember that the country that the USA seeks to protect, Taiwan, was run by the Fascist KMT until 1996 thus achieving their economic miracle and now that they are democratic, their manufacturing base is now China.

    Would a Chinese say anything against the Chinese government?

    Not for the reasons you think.

    Many have looked at what they had 30 short years ago and what they have now and have come to a different conclusion.

    They have also had time to digest the results of Tiananmen and the fall of the Wall which both happened in 1989 and have seen who fared better in the long run.

    Capitalism does not follow democracy. No company runs with a democratic leadership and the socialist external influences serve to make them uncompetetive.
     
  9. Jul 13, 2005 #8
    I disagree with both of you... But the chappelle show is on so I'll be back in half an hour to respond.
     
  10. Jul 13, 2005 #9
    Meh, I find I don't really ahve a lot to say.
    You need to stop treating China like some bloodthirsty, unstoppable megalomania with a liscence to kill. I hear dissent from them all the time, hell have you even BEEN to a political forum?
    1. Godwin's Law. Point. Game. Match. Loser!
    2. This proves nothing. Hitler is not Jintao, China is not Germany. The Internet didn't exist back in the days of Hitler. Come up with a better analogy than that.
    ..WHAT? Market Economy = self-expression and individuality?
    Care to explain the connection? I, personally, don't see one.

    I agree with The Smoking Man
    I agree with The Smoking Man, you need to show evidence for your assumptions.
     
  11. Jul 13, 2005 #10

    vanesch

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    That's why it is extremely important to establish democracies everywhere: it will finally lead to mediocre economic growth everywhere, so that we can finally talk about something else :biggrin:
    After all, you can only be poor in comparison with someone who is rich.
     
  12. Jul 13, 2005 #11
    And we'll all have enough cheese.
     
  13. Jul 13, 2005 #12

    loseyourname

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    At least with regards to agricultural dominance, there is another important factor. Consider Switzerland: it is nearly impossible for an army to cross the Alps to invade them, yet the Swiss have never dominated any world market. The other important factor in the US is the huge amount of temperate prairies and valleys that make for great farmland.

    Although the buck generally stops with the CEO, for any publicly held company, the board of directors, representing the stockholders, has a great deal of power, including the power to hire and fire the CEO. They're more democratic than you'd think. The difference is that, unlike in political democracies, every "voter" (stockholder) has the same interest: maximizing profit.
     
  14. Jul 13, 2005 #13
    Kind of makes it a great place to keep yer money doncha think? :wink:

    :rofl: And in China, the party votes within itself.
     
  15. Jul 13, 2005 #14

    loseyourname

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    Indeed. I suppose they have achieved world dominance in banking for criminals (although certain Caribbean islands are not far behind), not to mention the manufacture of fine chocolate and watches. They have those nifty little pocket-knives, too. Great place, that Switzerland.

    Well hey, that's one step in the right direction.
     
  16. Jul 13, 2005 #15

    vanesch

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    A friend of mine who worked there called it the "only totalitarian democracy in the world" :tongue:
     
  17. Jul 13, 2005 #16
    Didn't Russia's economy collapse when they decided to become more democratic and capitalistic too quickly? If China doesn't go slowly, they might crumple.
     
  18. Jul 13, 2005 #17
    Was Russia's economy particulary strong at any point?
     
  19. Jul 14, 2005 #18

    Look im asking Chinese citizens what they think not implying that they are happy.And besides , capitalism isn't the same as democracy.
    Any chinese citizens care to respond??( im ethnically chinese Malaysian citizen btw)
     
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