The Great Illusion

  • Thread starter Iacchus32
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  • #1
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Ever tell anyone the story of your life? Does that make you a fictional character too? I've never heard of you before, so does that just make you imaginary to me?

So, do you realize that for 99.999% of the people who exist on this planet that you only exist as a concept? ... Or, not even that perhaps? How do you know that you're not just an illusion? Once you pass away it will be as if you were never here. At least to this illusion you call self.

So, perhaps the only thing which is truly capable of recognizing this illusion you call life is this imaginary being you call God? In fact, why should any of us other illusions bother to give you the time of day? Hmm ...

Therefore, if life were merely an illusion, then there must be an even greater illusion from which all other illusions spring, right? But of course we're really not speaking of this at all, in as much as we're speaking of the greatest of illusionists, God Himself ...
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
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Thanks Iacchus32 your post has made me realize something. I am working to hard. Going on a vacation. Gone fishing. No one will evern know I am missing.
 
  • #3
If it is all such an ilusion then why does it hurt when I bang my head against a wall?

PS "Imaginary" is differentiated from "Imagined", inasmuch as 'Imaginary' is NON existent...'Imagined' can be either existent, or not yet existent, but planned....
 
  • #4
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You must have a bad life if you so much want to escape into a illusionary world. I myself see beauty and wonder every day in my godless world. I wonder who truly is happier.
 
  • #5
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The greatest thing about our reality is that it's exactly that! Our reality. If you deny the "truth" enough you begin to believe in the "lie". We can interpet others actions very diffenrtly from what others mean or see. So our reality isn't that far from an illusion i guess.
 
  • #6
...but you see, it is God's illusion that gives rise to your 'expostulation' upon illusion, something you would admit(?) (an illusion) you do not live in, right?
 
  • #7
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But certainly if there is more to life than just this temporal existence, then it must be an illusion, and we, must under the delusion that this is all there is.

Whereas if we died, and death was all there is, how would we ever know that our life was real? Doesn't this merely corroborate that it was just an illusion?
 
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  • #8
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my denifitions:

Illusion = unreal / non-existent / virtual
Illusion = things of non-existence PERCEIVED by a conscious being

Real = truly exists / the ultimate / pure / the greater illusion Iachus mention
Real has no beginning nor ending

I have never seen you guys here, so are you all illusions? I can't really make sense of what you're saying!! If what you're saying is true, are only the celebrities, political leaders, headliners etc. all REAL?
 
  • #9
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physicskid said:
I have never seen you guys here, so are you all illusions? I can't really make sense of what you're saying!! If what you're saying is true, are only the celebrities, political leaders, headliners etc. all REAL?
Actually the first part is a little more rhetorical, and it doesn't really begin until the part about, "Once you pass away it will be as if you were never here. At least to this illusion you call self." So it might make more sense if we began the discussion from here.
 
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  • #10
jammieg
That's interesting you say the illusion of self or ego, I think that is probably the self because when people are anesthetized they can still move their hand or whatever if asked to but feel no pain and remember nothing, it's weird, it's like how would one really know how much emotions influence thought, how much the instigate thought and cloud thought without ever knowing a moment without them? What would it be like to have no driving forces to give thoughts context? If emotions cloud thinking then being able to turn them up and down could be beneficial.
There may be another greater illusion, I was thinking the other day that the placebo effect might be the externally aided form of what imagination does, that is if everyone else believes this car will make them happy then it's more likely buying the car will make me happy, but it is the placebo effect, if a person uses their imagination constructively and needs no group belief they might be able to get the benefits of whatever placebos can do. One problem is that cars do make people happy when they don't have one and really need one to get along in the world.
 
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  • #11
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I do not exist. Because on a corresponding level, my life is broken to all but me.

To me, my life is beautiful and meaningful.

I exist as a person to relay stuff too. If I, as in the person who gets told about food sources, etc... wasn't here. Reality would not exist as you now feel it.

I am the person who you report too. I am this person for God, and man, and beast as well I believe.

You are the person who thinks(About God for example), and eats. I get the stories you have about these experiences. So, I am you in deed, not thought or word.

You cannot exist apart from me. Neither can God. I am a part of you both. Some hate God, these are denied by him. Ke ?

Now if people do not know thought, word, deed. Wha do I care ? I'm still them, and I'm still you.
 
  • #12
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if...

ok let's say this, you are saying that everyone could be an ilusion right??? and that we al live in this ilusionary world.so would that not mean that we all exist in this one world for us our "reality" is really the ilusion.maybe i could word this a litlle better.we all live in this ilusion so therefore this "ilusion" becomes the reality. it's like when someone goes into denial and only excepts lies since that is all there is in there life those lies of reality become there new reality. in this case our ilusion becomes the reality because that is all there is. now what i have to ask you is if we are all ilusion then how do we interact with other ilusion or are you saying that the interacting with the other "ilusion"(human beings) is an ilusion two, so that would mean everyone reading this post is having the same ilusion or maybe you are an ilusion and you have made it known and now you can interact with other ilusions????
 
  • #13
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by the way

i may have word that badly so please ask a way if i did word that badly and lost you
 
  • #14
FZ+
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If everything is a illusion, then maybe you are underestimating illusions?

Or at least define what you mean by an illusion.
 
  • #15
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Concepts / Awareness

To put it a little differently, I guess what I'm asking is if a concept can have substance apart from the everyday physical reality we experience? For isn't it a fact that the concept (as a result of consciousness) gives rise to everything we see around us? Or, so it would seem in terms of that which is man-made but, doesn't it also apply to nature as well? For example, the lion has to be conscious and aware of its surroundings in order to act upon the concept which tells it to slay the zebra, right? Meaning, everything is not fully on autopilot and there's at least some degree of awareness which precedes the act. Does that make any sense?

So what is it behind these concepts which orchestrate reality if, in fact there wasn't something tangible to them? Meaning, is it possible for concepts to be alive? They certainly seem to be able to maintain a life within our imagination don't they? In other words, is it possible that our awareness is spawned through this tangible concept we call God?
 
  • #16
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jammieg said:
There may be another greater illusion, I was thinking the other day the the placebo effect might be the externally aided form of what imagination does, that is if everyone else believes this car will make them happy then it's more likely buying the car will make me happy, but it is the placebo effect, if a person uses their imagination constructively and needs no group belief they might be able to get the benefits of whatever placebos can do. One problem is that cars do make people happy when they don't have one and really need one to get along in the world.
So, is it possible that our imagination might be alive? I mean it's alive in the sense that we're alive but, isn't it possible that we aren't in fact tapping in to some greater river of life so to speak? ... i.e., consciousness. In other words why does it appear to us in terms of concepts and, what is it about these concepts if, in fact they don't have some degree of life of their own? Doesn't this pretty much describe everything else about us as well?
 
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  • #17
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Wolf said:
ok let's say this, you are saying that everyone could be an ilusion right??? and that we al live in this ilusionary world.so would that not mean that we all exist in this one world for us our "reality" is really the ilusion.maybe i could word this a litlle better.we all live in this ilusion so therefore this "ilusion" becomes the reality. it's like when someone goes into denial and only excepts lies since that is all there is in there life those lies of reality become there new reality. in this case our ilusion becomes the reality because that is all there is. now what i have to ask you is if we are all ilusion then how do we interact with other ilusion or are you saying that the interacting with the other "ilusion"(human beings) is an ilusion two, so that would mean everyone reading this post is having the same ilusion or maybe you are an ilusion and you have made it known and now you can interact with other ilusions????
Yes, I agree that there's a tangibility to our existence (be it a collective illusion or not). However, where does that tangibility go when we die? If on the one hand you have that which is tangible, and the other you have total non-existence, what is so tangible about that? Also, what is it that gives tangibility to our existence in the first place? Consciousness right? And yet it's this very entity which becomes untangible when we die. Is it possible that this entity goes on to define a different reality?
 
  • #18
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Deeviant said:
You must have a bad life if you so much want to escape into a illusionary world. I myself see beauty and wonder every day in my godless world. I wonder who truly is happier.
So, what is sentimentality compared against the backdrop of non-existence? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It just seems kind of weird doesn't it? :wink:
 
  • #19
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FZ+ said:
If everything is a illusion, then maybe you are underestimating illusions?

Or at least define what you mean by an illusion.
I know it seems like I'm twisting things around here, but when we die and no longer exist, wouldn't that be tantamount to saying life has no meaning? Although it may have appeared differently when we were alive? So doesn't that suggest meaning -- which, is what we also call our lives -- itself is an illusion?
 
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  • #20
jammieg
I would guess that the word "imagination" is analogous to the meaning of the old word "soul". And what I've noticed a lot of is that good people need have little fear of their imagination, "good" in the sense that they try to help others and not hurt them. It's kind of like if you don't buy into all the group thinking that the rest of the world does then you might start to feel very alone and losing out, it's mostly groups struggling for control and money and superficiality or emotional appeals and whatever but the truth is so plain and simple and obvious it is easy to forget. Like when you focus on a spot long enough everything around it fades to black, possibly this is like the real world in which all the various realities of life fade to black over many years until one is left with one primary reality they to often use and one reasons, yet shift the point of view and suddenly the whole picture comes into view again. The reason I think this is true is that when I pretend people can read my mind (yes I know I'm crazy but the good kind) I start to be a lot more honest with them and myself and the effects are good, but it also means that it's more difficult to lie to them to get what I want from them so if I were a more hateful person or if I really wanted to be good at sales I would say that this game of pretend is stupid and will eventually drive me insane, but over time I've gotten better at "reading" people and being more honest which might raise another question, which is more important, having greater empathy and possibly truth or getting more for oneself from others, see everyone thinks that they are mostly honest, but when the area has faded to black how will you know? I don't know if imagination is something beyond known science and the skull, I would suppose not.
 
  • #21
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Iacchus32 said:
To put it a little differently, I guess what I'm asking is if a concept can have substance apart from the everyday physical reality we experience?


For isn't it a fact that the concept (as a result of consciousness) gives rise to everything we see around us? Or, so it would seem in terms of that which is man-made but, doesn't it also apply to nature as well? For example, the lion has to be conscious and aware of its surroundings in order to act upon the concept which tells it to slay the zebra, right? Meaning, everything is not fully on autopilot and there's at least some degree of awareness which precedes the act. Does that make any sense?

So what is it behind these concepts which orchestrate reality if, in fact there wasn't something tangible to them? Meaning, is it possible for concepts to be alive? They certainly seem to be able to maintain a life within our imagination don't they? In other words, is it possible that our awareness is spawned through this tangible concept we call God?[/QUOTE]
These questions are very old and even crop up in connection with the Copenhagen interpretation of QM (which to some physicists implies a cosmic observer).

However I think the word 'epiphenomenon' is better than 'illusion'. Thus most 'Eastern' philosophies and religions take consciousness as fundamental and say that it has no external attributes, and that the universe arises from it. However they do not generally regard 'God' as fundamental, or at least mean something quite different by 'God' to the normal Christian version. In the western philosophical tradition Spinoza probably comes closest to an eastern view of God.

Science seems to take the view that the physical universe rests on nothing. This shows up in the problem of attributes - (what is left of an object once its attributes are taken away). Scientifically speaking the answer must be nothing. However logically this makes no sense. The problem remains unsolved in western philosophy.

The idea that the universe is an epihpenomenon seems unavoidable to me, but perhaps there's a way around it.

Just to avoid sounding too off the wall I'll say I agree with Erwin Scroedinger on this one. The universe must be an epiphenomenon and the application of Occam's Razor suggests we are all God.

Sorry I'm rushed and waffling. It's too big a topic. Needs narrowing down a bit.
 
  • #22
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Iacchus32 said:
To put it a little differently, I guess what I'm asking is if a concept can have substance apart from the everyday physical reality we experience?

For isn't it a fact that the concept (as a result of consciousness) gives rise to everything we see around us? Or, so it would seem in terms of that which is man-made but, doesn't it also apply to nature as well? For example, the lion has to be conscious and aware of its surroundings in order to act upon the concept which tells it to slay the zebra, right? Meaning, everything is not fully on autopilot and there's at least some degree of awareness which precedes the act. Does that make any sense?

So what is it behind these concepts which orchestrate reality if, in fact there wasn't something tangible to them? Meaning, is it possible for concepts to be alive? They certainly seem to be able to maintain a life within our imagination don't they? In other words, is it possible that our awareness is spawned through this tangible concept we call God?
These questions are very old and even crop up in connection with the Copenhagen interpretation of QM (which to some physicists implies a cosmic observer).

However I think the word 'epiphenomenon' is better than 'illusion'. Thus most 'Eastern' philosophies and religions take consciousness as fundamental and say that it has no external attributes, and that the universe arises from it. However they do not generally regard 'God' as fundamental, or at least mean something quite different by 'God' to the normal Christian version. In the western philosophical tradition Spinoza probably comes closest to an eastern view of God.

Science seems to take the view that the physical universe rests on nothing. This shows up in the problem of attributes - (what is left of an object once its attributes are taken away). Scientifically speaking the answer must be nothing. However logically this makes no sense. The problem remains unsolved in western philosophy.

The idea that the universe is an epihpenomenon seems unavoidable to me, but perhaps there's a way around it.

Just to avoid sounding too off the wall I'll say I agree with Erwin Scroedinger on this one. The universe must be an epiphenomenon and the application of Occam's Razor suggests we are all God and together create it.

Sorry I'm rushed and waffling. It's too big a topic. Needs narrowing down a bit.
 

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