The Heart of Reality

2,216
0
What is life, if not that which is held internally? What is essence, if not that which is contained within form? Doesn't this suggest that life is an "interior process," by which the external "material world" exists to serve? And, that perhaps we should spend some time focusing on our "interior selves" as well? Why doesn't science seem to get the idea? With its exclusive focus on material existence. Doesn't it know that the "heart of reality" exists within us?

It used to be religion regarded the truth about our "inner selves," but now we rely almost exclusively on science to provide "the truth," which is nowhere near providing these kind of answers. Why is that? And why are we so bound on material existence?
 
3,697
2
Originally posted by Iacchus32
What is life, if not that which is held internally?
You mean that which is held inside of people? That which is held on the outside of people (cells, and the like).

What is essence, if not that which is contained within form?
Is essence not of some form, on it's own?

Doesn't this suggest that life is an "interior process," by which the external "material world" exists to serve? And, that perhaps we should spend some time focusing on our "interior selves" as well?
Perhaps is suggests this to you, but I don't even agree with the premises, so "it" can't suggest anything to me.

Why doesn't science seem to get the idea?
A scientist might ask the same thing of you. Also, I think you are using "science" as synonymous with "materialism", you really shouldn't do that. There are a lot of scientists that are not materialists.

With its exclusive focus on material existence. Doesn't it know that the "heart of reality" exists within us?
Don't you know that it doesn't? I'm not really saying that it doesn't, I'm just posing the question that exists at opposites with yours, and has equal (if not greater) credibility.

It used to be religion regarded the truth about our "inner selves," but now we rely almost exclusively on science to provide "the truth," which is nowhere near providing these kind of answers. Why is that? And why are we so bound on material existence?
Because we are part of it.
 

FZ+

Mad Scientist
1,532
2
Well, you probably already know my stance, but I'll summarise it: Essence is the mental and virtual component of form. Life is an entirely subjective notion. Consciousness is a phenomenon emerging out of material complexity. Judgement of consciousness is based on egotistical subjectivism.

What is life, if not that which is held internally?
Well, I don't suppose you are going to argue to solipism, so I'll let this one pass. However, this does contain a route to the answer. Why can life not exist "naked"? I would say that like the singularity at the heart of a blackhole, it is an effect of the form, not the cause. Being held is perhaps essential to life itself.

What is essence, if not that which is contained within form?
Notice again the dependence of essence on form. By my stance, this can of course be interpreted very differently...

Doesn't this suggest that life is an "interior process," by which the external "material world" exists to serve?
No... Not really. Because the interdependence is apparently mutual. Suppose we put for a moment life as a lesser importance than the material world. Then it is equally plausible that life is an element of the material world, or a creation of it.

And, that perhaps we should spend some time focusing on our "interior selves" as well?
But is there that much to focus on? What is there about each man than his experiences? No. The interior is hollow, only a background ambience of old genetic instincts persist. Even in our dreams, the material is from without.

Why doesn't science seem to get the idea? With its exclusive focus on material existence. Doesn't it know that the "heart of reality" exists within us?
Do you know? Science seeks material knowledge. That is the essence, so to speak, of it's existence. That is not science's failing, but that this limit is it's virtue. Our understanding of the truth has changed. We have observed that there is no longer that one true book, or god, but a strident voyage that is important. Science is never about the goal, but the journey. The answers YOU seek may well never be found. As to what lies beyond material existence, science doesn't actually give a damn.
 
Last edited:
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Iacchus32,
Why doesn't science seem to get the idea? With its exclusive focus on material existence. Doesn't it know that the "heart of reality" exists within us?
I hear this frequently and while I would like to know the mystery to our existence as much as anyone, to me it is like asking;

Why doesnt't Political science seem to get the idea?
or
Why doesn't Dentistry seem to get the idea?
or
Why doesn't civil engineering seem to get the idea?

My question is;
Why does everyone seem think science is supposed to concern itself with such ideas in the first place, and if you already that the heart of reality exists within us then what do you need science for?
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by Mentat
You mean that which is held inside of people? That which is held on the outside of people (cells, and the like).
Anything that's living exists "within context" of an external shell or form. But, once that form is breeched, then that organism ceases to go on living, meaning it dies. Therefore there must be something inherent about the life which is within, as opposed to what is "readily" observable without. Whereas with human beings I would take this a step further to include cognizance, which is our ability to "know" that we exist.


Is essence not of some form, on it's own?
Essence speaks of the "internal dimensions" within the form, and hence the "life within." I don't know why this is so hard to grasp?


Perhaps is suggests this to you, but I don't even agree with the premises, so "it" can't suggest anything to me.
Isn't wisdom (essence) the interior aspect of knowledge or form?


A scientist might ask the same thing of you. Also, I think you are using "science" as synonymous with "materialism", you really shouldn't do that. There are a lot of scientists that are not materialists.
Science of its own means has very little to do with the study of life, but rather the study of that which is dead and "formal."


Don't you know that it doesn't? I'm not really saying that it doesn't, I'm just posing the question that exists at opposites with yours, and has equal (if not greater) credibility.
With science everything focuses on the brain, while neglecting the fact that we have a heart which, implies a "center to our existence." Isn't this by the way, the very first thing which is developed by the embryo, "the heart?"


Because we are part of it.
In which respect? Don't you know that although there is an "external reality" (I'm not denying this), that our experience of it is totally internal? Meaning we couldn't experience it unless we were alive? So what is it about us being alive, and hence conscious?
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by BoulderHead
Iacchus32,
I hear this frequently and while I would like to know the mystery to our existence as much as anyone, to me it is like asking;

Why doesnt't Political science seem to get the idea?
or
Why doesn't Dentistry seem to get the idea?
or
Why doesn't civil engineering seem to get the idea?

My question is;
Why does everyone seem think science is supposed to concern itself with such ideas in the first place, and if you already that the heart of reality exists within us then what do you need science for?
Yes, if science is based upon finding the truth, whatever that truth might be, then why shouldn't it? Why shouldn't it concern itself with the "heart of the matter?" Hmm ... it almost sounds hypocritical now doesn't it?
 
Last edited:
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, if it bases itself on finding the truth, whatever that truth might be? It almost sounds hypocritical now doesn't it?
To me, science is after truth, not Truth, if you know what I mean. I view it as a child (and I don't mean 'child' to be taken in a negative way) that is taking apart something and examining it piece by piece by piece.
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by BoulderHead
To me, science is after truth, not Truth, if you know what I mean. I view it as a child (and I don't mean 'child' to be taken in a negative way) that is taking apart something and examining it piece by piece by piece.
What is the difference so long as truth is based upon reality? Is there not also truth within Truth?

And what if Truth were the "ultimately reality?" Where would that leave science? With its thumb stuck up its rear?
 
1,899
0
Originally posted by BoulderHead

My question is;
Why does everyone seem think science is supposed to concern itself with such ideas in the first place, and if you already that the heart of reality exists within us then what do you need science for?
As with any theory, the qualitative aspects are the most difficult to predict and the most artistic. Paradox is Qualitatively adaptable to mother nature in ways linear logic is not. Any kind of theory you can think of will work with paradox precisely because it is so vague a concept. Like the discoveries of jazz music, paradoxical theories can even indicate where the future of more linear research will take us.

Never underestimate the power of art.
 
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Originally posted by Iacchus32
What is the difference so long as truth is based upon reality? Is there not also truth within Truth?
I view it as more mechanical than perhaps you do. If you likened it to the construction of a jigsaw puzzle then not only is it looking at the individual pieces with great care and scrutiny, but it may not be able to see the entire puzzle or even know how many pieces there are yet to be found and assembled.

And what if Truth were the "ultimately reality?" Where would that leave science? With its thumb stuck up its rear?
I think that at our present stage, science may still have its thumb in its mouth. Eventually it may alternate between the two orifices in a game of 'switch'.
 
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Originally posted by wuliheron
As with any theory, the qualitative aspects are the most difficult to predict and the most artistic. Paradox is Qualitatively adaptable to mother nature in ways linear logic is not. Any kind of theory you can think of will work with paradox precisely because it is so vague a concept. Like the discoveries of jazz music, paradoxical theories can even indicate where the future of more linear research will take us.

Never underestimate the power of art.
Now I find myself being 'freaked out' :smile:
I have only read some of the Paradox threads, and while I admit that I 'see' paradoxes, I am not able to properly defend my reasons for this.
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by FZ+
Well, you probably already know my stance, but I'll summarise it: Essence is the mental and virtual component of form. Life is an entirely subjective notion. Consciousness is a phenomenon emerging out of material complexity. Judgement of consciousness is based on egotistical subjectivism.
Essence is by no means virtual. Without it we wouldn't exist. If life is a subjective notion, then would you say this is your objective opinion? I don't buy that.


Well, I don't suppose you are going to argue to solipism, so I'll let this one pass. However, this does contain a route to the answer. Why can life not exist "naked"? I would say that like the singularity at the heart of a blackhole, it is an effect of the form, not the cause. Being held is perhaps essential to life itself.
Life cannot exist naked because it would be one big primordial soup, I suppose? While I'm not sure singularity is the correct term for anything. For a "singularity" cannot exist by itself, otherwise it would be "nothing" ... "Truth is the vessel (form) and Good is contained within (life or essence)."


Notice again the dependence of essence on form. By my stance, this can of course be interpreted very differently...
Did you know that where my senses touch reality, for example my skin, that it's made of nothing but dead skin cells? What does that suggest about external reality?


No... Not really. Because the interdependence is apparently mutual. Suppose we put for a moment life as a lesser importance than the material world. Then it is equally plausible that life is an element of the material world, or a creation of it.
Without the "inner-workings" there would be nothing to tell the "outer-workings" what to do.


But is there that much to focus on? What is there about each man than his experiences? No. The interior is hollow, only a background ambience of old genetic instincts persist. Even in our dreams, the material is from without.
In other words what you're saying is that you as an entity don't exist. Why can't science focus on the fact that "the center" (which is of the heart) is the origin?


Do you know? Science seeks material knowledge. That is the essence, so to speak, of it's existence. That is not science's failing, but that this limit is it's virtue. Our understanding of the truth has changed. We have observed that there is no longer that one true book, or god, but a strident voyage that is important. Science is never about the goal, but the journey. The answers YOU seek may well never be found. As to what lies beyond material existence, science doesn't actually give a damn.
Yes, but if science didn't claim to hold the answer to reality, whatever that might be mind you, then maybe it wouldn't be necessary to question its validity.
 

FZ+

Mad Scientist
1,532
2
Essence is by no means virtual. Without it we wouldn't exist. If life is a subjective notion, then would you say this is your objective opinion? I don't buy that.
Or so you assert. No, the life thing is my subjective conclusion, based on the idea that no one has ever come up with a reasonable definition of life, other than the statement that the speaker is always alive.

Life cannot exist naked because it would be one big primordial soup, I suppose? While I'm not sure singularity is the correct term for anything. For a "singularity" cannot exist by itself, otherwise it would be "nothing" ... "Truth is the vessel (form) and Good is contained within (life or essence)."
No. Then the soup provides the form. The essence of life is, in my view, dependent on the form. As I assert that just as a singularity cannot exist by itself, life cannot exist without form, otherwise it would be nothing. "Good" does not exist objectively, but is asigned subjectively to the form. See?

Did you know that where my senses touch reality, for example my skin, that it's made of nothing but dead skin cells? What does that suggest about external reality?
I can assure you that your nerves which provide the interface between the mind and reality are very much possessing the forms you see as alive. What is that supposed to suggest to me?

Without the "inner-workings" there would be nothing to tell the "outer-workings" what to do.
But they do it anyway. As others have said, actions have been well known to happen without thought. I don't see what you are trying to say.

In other words what you're saying is that you as an entity don't exist. Why can't science focus on the fact that "the center" (which is of the heart) is the origin?
I am saying that I as a singular entity does not exist. Rather, I am created from a collection of stored information. Without this information, which is the form, the singularity of I am nothing. There is nothing at the centre but the collection which acts as a whole.

Yes, but if science didn't claim to hold the answer to reality, whatever that might be mind you, then maybe it wouldn't be necessary to question its validity.
Science claims to hold an infinity of answers to reality. It does not however claim any of them is the absolute truth. So you needn't question it's validity, when it does not claim completeness and truth. Journey important, not destination.
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by BoulderHead
I view it as more mechanical than perhaps you do. If you likened it to the construction of a jigsaw puzzle then not only is it looking at the individual pieces with great care and scrutiny, but it may not be able to see the entire puzzle or even know how many pieces there are yet to be found and assembled.
What is mechanics without the "notion" behind its operation?

I think that at our present stage, science may still have its thumb in its mouth. Eventually it may alternate between the two orifices in a game of 'switch'.
I don't know, there are a lot of people out there with their PHD's. Piled higher and deeper you know.
 
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Originally posted by Iacchus32
What is mechanics without the "notion" behind its operation?
A good place to start?
 
1,899
0
Originally posted by BoulderHead
Now I find myself being 'freaked out' :smile:
I have only read some of the Paradox threads, and while I admit that I 'see' paradoxes, I am not able to properly defend my reasons for this.
Here are a few quotes from some of the masters of paradox just to help shake up your reality a little. :0)

``A paradox is not a conflict within reality. It is a conflict between
reality and your feeling of what reality should be like.''
- Richard Feynman


When paradox is widely believed, it is no longer recognized as a paradox.
-Mason Cooley


Jean-Jacques ROUSSEAU, Émile ou De l'éducation, livre II
'd rather be a man of paradox than a man of prejudice.


Man, if you gotta ask you'll never know.
Louis Armstrong


You dig man? Got the grove yet?
 
B

BoulderHead

Guest
Far out....and, solid...

You dig man? Got the grove yet?
I think so. The first two strike a feeling in me, thanks.
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by FZ+
Or so you assert. No, the life thing is my subjective conclusion, based on the idea that no one has ever come up with a reasonable definition of life, other than the statement that the speaker is always alive.
The speaker is also conscious and aware of his surroundings.


No. Then the soup provides the form. The essence of life is, in my view, dependent on the form. As I assert that just as a singularity cannot exist by itself, life cannot exist without form, otherwise it would be nothing. "Good" does not exist objectively, but is asigned subjectively to the form. See?
Isn't it possible for a cloud of dust to exist, before it condenses into a ball, which we then call the earth? This would be one definition of essence giving rise to form. Whereas water falls from the sky as droplets which then gives rise to a lake. Likewise, a volcano can spew out molten magma which then gives rise to solid rock ...

I can assure you that your nerves which provide the interface between the mind and reality are very much possessing the forms you see as alive. What is that supposed to suggest to me?
What I'm saying is that everything that exists outside of "form" is dead ...


But they do it anyway. As others have said, actions have been well known to happen without thought. I don't see what you are trying to say.
Whereas if nothing existed within the form (life) it would also be dead.


I am saying that I as a singular entity does not exist. Rather, I am created from a collection of stored information. Without this information, which is the form, the singularity of I am nothing. There is nothing at the centre but the collection which acts as a whole.
Can't you just set your brain aside for a second and experience the fact that you exist?


Science claims to hold an infinity of answers to reality. It does not however claim any of them is the absolute truth. So you needn't question it's validity, when it does not claim completeness and truth. Journey important, not destination.
Well when the whole world follows suit with its answers, then yes, I do question its validity.
 
Last edited:

FZ+

Mad Scientist
1,532
2
What is mechanics without the "notion" behind its operation?
What is weather without the "notion" behind its operation? Weather.

What is the unknown without the nothing behind its operation? Still unknown. The notion is something applied, not something essential. Newton's first law states the possibility of constant motion without force. FZ+'s first law may do the same with will and notion?:wink:
 
2,216
0
Originally posted by Iacchus32
What is mechanics without the "notion" behind its operation?

Originally posted by BoulderHead
A good place to start?
But it doesn't go anywhere.
 

The Physics Forums Way

We Value Quality
• Topics based on mainstream science
• Proper English grammar and spelling
We Value Civility
• Positive and compassionate attitudes
• Patience while debating
We Value Productivity
• Disciplined to remain on-topic
• Recognition of own weaknesses
• Solo and co-op problem solving

Members online

Top