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The Holocaust

  1. Yes

    40 vote(s)
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
  3. Uncertain

    5 vote(s)
  1. Jan 24, 2005 #1
    Do you believe that the Nazis are responsible for annihilating over 6,000,000 Jews, Communists, mentally and physically disabled, Gypsies, homosexuals and Catholics during World War II?
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 24, 2005 #2
    what is the point of this thread? I don't get it.
  4. Jan 24, 2005 #3
    I'm not afraid being called anti-semite or whatever,but if 60 years passed since WW2 and people around the world questioning the 6 million number, there must be something wrong with official data.
    And my friends ,don't forget that 8 million Poles were killed by Nazis and nobody celebrates.
    To me sounds like only Jews died in WW2 and they have monopoly on suffering.
    Thank You .

    PS.you asked for opinnion, you have got one.
  5. Jan 24, 2005 #4
    About your logic saying that there mustn't've been 6 million killed because people are questioning it, people are STILL questioning evolution, and it's been around (as a published theory) for hundreds of years and as a principal of life for 3.7 billion years, doesn't mean it's not true. Or, if you're on the other side of the fence, people are STILL questioning creationism...

    About people not caring about the poles killed during WWII, it is certainly weird. No one seems to care much about the 30 million people who died as a result of Mao's "Great Leap Forward", or the 20 some-odd million people killed by Stalin, but 6 million Jews do get alot of attention. People are weird in what they care about...
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  6. Jan 24, 2005 #5
    People still question whether or not we landed on the moon. Doesn't mean we didn't. There are some who even question whether the world is round or if the sun is indeed more than 1000 km away.
  7. Jan 24, 2005 #6

    that's almost exactly what norman finkelstein (supposedly) says in his book "the holocaust industry". to quote a reviewer on amazon.com, he argues "that many Jews unfortunately feel that this tremendous suffering confers upon them some kind of moral blank-check for whatever political or financial purposes they see fit--kicking Palestinians out of their homes, for example". i hadn't seen that irony until i read that review. (haven't read that book yet but it sounds very interesting) i recall a news report a couple months ago quoting a member of the israeli government who called palestinians "filthy animals". here's a page that has that quotation & others:
    web page

    btw anyone who has any doubt at all about whether or not the holocaust really happened, or who would even debate the issue has already lost their humanity. all the remembering, etc is sort of overshadowing all the other evil stuff that has happened besides the holocaust. like this:
    "The West has never been allowed to forget the Nazi holocaust. For 40 years there has been a continuous outpouring of histories, memoirs, novels, feature films, documentaries, television series... played and replayed, in every Western language; museums, memorials, remembrances, ceremonies...Never again! But who hears the voice of the vietnamese peasant? Who can read the language of the vietnamese intellectual? What was the fate of the vietnamese Anne Frank? Where, asks the young American, is Vietnam?" - William Blum, www.killinghope.org

    ps -- another major tragedy that comes to mind, besides vietnam in the vietnam war, or russia/ussr in WWII is france in WWI. i think they even call the young men who died in that war the "lost generation" because there were so many. canada's sacrifice/contribution in those wars pales in comparison; even though 1/11th of the country willingly signed up in WWII it was still only ~1,000,000 soldiers.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  8. Jan 24, 2005 #7
    For the long time I thought that Jewish people after what they went thru in ghettos around Europe in WW2 gained some new prospective on live and would never ever treat others inhumanly.Lo and Behold, 60 years after WW2 they, "holiest of holies" are building walls and ghettos and oppressing, humilliating other people - Palestinians.
  9. Jan 24, 2005 #8
    I am uncertain, I have heard high numbers, but personally I do not care to look any further.
  10. Jan 24, 2005 #9
    I have heard that the European emigration to America has resulted in the deaths of up to 50 million natives.
  11. Jan 24, 2005 #10
    50 million Natives, that is outrageous. I would say 1 mil max

    edit... do you have a source that supports your claim?
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2005
  12. Jan 24, 2005 #11


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    Loren, not sure what you're getting at here. Are you wanting to bring to light some atrocity? Feel free to do so, but do not belittle the suffering that resulted from the holocaust, ok?
  13. Jan 24, 2005 #12

    Yeah, Stalin and mao were far worse, as genocidal maniacs go.
  14. Jan 25, 2005 #13

    No it was at least 50 million. This isn't just the US. Over the whole "New World" Easily 50 million. Cambridge History of Latin America claims something like 25 million in mexico alone.

    You're severly underestimating what new world populations where, and to what levels they were reduced.
  15. Jan 25, 2005 #14
    i don't know about 50 million (i heard 10 million, in the US anyway), but the definitive book on that seems to be stannard's "american holocaust" (another one on my list). i've sure zinn's "a people's history of the united states" has a lot about the natives in the also.
  16. Jan 25, 2005 #15
    This is a useless thread, really. What's up with people??? Who is this sucker that denies holocaust ??? Let me take him/here to Auschwitz...


    ps : or is this one of those smart-ass adolescents who don't even know who Hitler was ???
  17. Jan 25, 2005 #16
    To doubt what happened a Auschwitz etc is the most horrible sort of conspricay theory. However, it is true that the death camps killed people other than Jews: "In addition to the approximately 6 million Jews who were the targets of a complete annihilation policy in the Nazi Holocaust, were an estimated 5.5 million ‘enemies of the German State’ who were murdered under equally inhumane circumstances -- asocials, the insane, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, political criminals such as communists & socialists, and Gypsies". http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Holocaust/lectures/lec11c.html

    Although the Jewish people represented just over half of the victims of the death camps, I agree that it is strange that we don't hear about the rest, given the numbers involved.

    I don't know why the Jewish people have a louder voice than the others under the nazis (and Stalin, Pol Pot etc). Perhaps the Western media has chosen to champion their cause, as it is of relevance to Westerners? Perhaps Cambodian TV spends the same amount of time on the killing fields, I don't know. One thing that is positive about not being allowed to forget, is that we have a readily accessible stereotype of genocide, so that we have a chance to recognise similar events and stopping them before they can gather momentum. It is also salutary that the nazi atrocities were orchestrated by Germany, a country that we recognise as an epitome of civilisation in many respects, so that the motto of fools - "It couldn't happen here" - should never be uttered again.
  18. Jan 25, 2005 #17

    Chi Meson

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    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    For any event that you yourself did not witness, you cannot be 100% sure of what did happen and you can question someone else's testimony. Even if you did witness something, you still can't claim 100% sureity of all the details. All "facts" are only parts of an incomplete picture. Any missing parts automatically become questionalbe areas of doubt.

    That being said, the evidence of the Holocaust is there. There are photographs, witnesses (thousands of them) documents of the designs of the camps and creamatoriums, thousands of Jews with tatoos on their arms, piles of shoes, piles of bones, piles of gold fillings pulled from teeth. THere is color moving film footage of these things. THere are recording of american soldiers who can't hold back the tears as they describe what they saw at the camps.

    Perhaps, as has been mentioned, you can argue over the specific number of millions, but if you* can deny the Holocaust, then congratulations, you can deny anything. Write your own history book the way you want it, since all documentaion is so questionable.

    * not referring to anyone in particular
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2005
  19. Jan 25, 2005 #18


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    I blame the citizens of Germany because they voted for a man who said he would do it.

    Hitler was a politician who told the truth and did what he said he was going to do.
  20. Jan 25, 2005 #19
  21. Jan 25, 2005 #20
    I recently saw a documentary recognizing the anniversary of Auschwitz. The systematic killing that took place there on such a large scale is so great that even devoutly religious people seriously question God as to any purpose it might have had. It continues to be a no-win situation. I myself identify with those Jews and others who perished; although I come from blue-eyed Aryan stock, I suffer from a mental illness. As far as numbers killed under a dictatorial regime, Stalin's reputed 40 million or Mao's 30 million seem to shadow the body count of the Holocaust - remember, though, the German Nazi state that sought to kill most efficiently and economically, as if they had an assembly line to eliminate the objects of their paranoia.

    I started this poll out of personal curiosity as to whether intelligence (as in PF posters) correlated at all with accepting the simple fact that the Holocaust in all its magnitude had actually occurred. I encourage similar, if not parallel, posts about other genocides.

    Please excuse my omission of mentioning the tribulations of the Jehovah's witnesses or any other objects of Nazi hatred. It amazes me as to the simmering resentment of the Jews specifically, brought on by a post about the Holocaust in general, for the current debacle in the Middle East. That is a double-bind I often find myself in, as if the abused had become the abusers.

    Any of you whose family has undergone horrific evil at the hands of a government but deny the right of the Jews to remind us of the modern Nazi killing state, please speak up. It is people like those who perished in the Holocaust who preserved our right to speak freely, no matter how offensively. "Die Gedanken sind frei."
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2005
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