Hubble vs. LHC: Who Provides Bigger Return on Investment?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the comparison between the Hubble Space Telescope and the Large Hadron Collider in terms of their return on investment and impact on science. While the Hubble has been in operation for 24 years and has produced a large number of papers, the LHC is still in its early stages and has the potential to make significant discoveries in the future. However, it is difficult to directly compare the two as they have different purposes and methods. The LHC has already confirmed the existence of the Higgs Boson, but its potential for further discoveries is still unknown. The conversation also touches on the cost of the two projects and the opinions of those who work on them.
  • #1
Duhoc
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With the handing out of Nobel Prizes last week it occurred to me that the selection committee decided to go in the direction of hard-headed application of science rather than some grand theory. We can certainly calculate over time, the value of a 'hard-headed" discovery, but calculating the return on more abstruse knowledge is far more difficult. And in that vein, I was wondering whether the Hubble Space Telescope or the Large Hadron Collider had provided mankind with a greater return on investment.
 
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  • #2
Isn't that like asking who would win a fight between Superman and the Hulk?

Also, the HST has been in orbit for around a quarter-century. The LHC hasn't reached design energy yet. How can you compare?
 
  • #3
I'm for the HST. It's been in operation for 24 years and over 9,000 papers have been written using its data.

We'll have to wait another 2 decades or so to see how well the LHC impacts science.
 
  • #4
I don't think there's any way to compare. You might be able to compare cost-effectiveness for one particle collider against another. But there's no way to compare high-energy physics discoveries against astronomical observations in terms of value.
 
  • #5
No, there is a way to compare. How has the LHC changed our view of the universe? Has it measured up to the LHC? What is its potential to do so?
 
  • #6
Finding the Higgs Boson seems to be the deciding factor in my humble opinion...
 
  • #7
Duhoc said:
No, there is a way to compare. How has the LHC changed our view of the universe? Has it measured up to the LHC? What is its potential to do so?
Nope. No way to answer those questions.

And no, I don't think the Higgs discovery makes that decision any more objective.
 
  • #8
A head to head between the most powerful telescope and most powerful microscope. That might qualify as the ultimate apples to oranges comparison. ... "I can see the most distant stars!", said the HST. "Pffft, I can see what they are made of.", said the LHC.
 
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  • #9
Duhoc said:
How has the LHC changed our view of the universe? Has it measured up to the LHC?
Yes I think so ;).

The LHC certainly changed my view of the universe, but that is not surprising if you work for it.
It is not just the Higgs boson:
There were multiple good arguments why the LHC should/could see supersymmetric particles. No result so far, which opens many new questions.
Before the LHC, particle physics experiments at accelerators formed two groups: proton/(anti)proton collisions to discover new things with a lot of other particles flying around from collisions, and electron/positron collisions to study those discovered things in detail in a clean environment. The LHC experiments can do both at the same time - in several measurements, they are more precise than existing electron/positron colliders already.

The LHC collected about 1% of the total collisions foreseen over the full lifetime (including upgrades) so far. 99% are still to come! And those 99% will be with a higher energy so they are much more effective.
 
  • #10
CaptDude said:
Finding the Higgs Boson seems to be the deciding factor in my humble opinion...
Yeah, I'd agree w/ that. I think they also done interesting work on antimatter.
 
  • #11
Looking at it from the design/engineering standpoint, IMO the http://www.atlas.ch/photos/lhc.html would win hands down.
 
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  • #12
mfb said:
Yes I think so ;).

The LHC certainly changed my view of the universe, but that is not surprising if you work for it.
It is not just the Higgs boson:
There were multiple good arguments why the LHC should/could see supersymmetric particles. No result so far, which opens many new questions.
Before the LHC, particle physics experiments at accelerators formed two groups: proton/(anti)proton collisions to discover new things with a lot of other particles flying around from collisions, and electron/positron collisions to study those discovered things in detail in a clean environment. The LHC experiments can do both at the same time - in several measurements, they are more precise than existing electron/positron colliders already.

The LHC collected about 1% of the total collisions foreseen over the full lifetime (including upgrades) so far. 99% are still to come! And those 99% will be with a higher energy so they are much more effective.
mfb said:
Yes I think so ;).

The LHC certainly changed my view of the universe, but that is not surprising if you work for it.
It is not just the Higgs boson:
There were multiple good arguments why the LHC should/could see supersymmetric particles. No result so far, which opens many new questions.
Before the LHC, particle physics experiments at accelerators formed two groups: proton/(anti)proton collisions to discover new things with a lot of other particles flying around from collisions, and electron/positron collisions to study those discovered things in detail in a clean environment. The LHC experiments can do both at the same time - in several measurements, they are more precise than existing electron/positron colliders already.

The LHC collected about 1% of the total collisions foreseen over the full lifetime (including upgrades) so far. 99% are still to come! And those 99% will be with a higher energy so they are much more effective.
Thoughtful reply. But how has it changed your view. The Hubble cost about 2 billion to build and maintain. The Collider about four times that. But the Hubble has been a window on the universe, settling scores of problems, showing us the extent of the universe. It has focused on predicted and unpredicted events. It has confirmed that the universe is expanding, shown us how new stars are born. The LHC has proved the existence of the Higgs Boson. But what else does it promise to do? The United States started to build a collider then thought better of it. Maybe it was right. But I am interested in your thoughts, as you work there.
 
  • #13
Duhoc said:
But the Hubble has been a window on the universe, settling scores of problems, showing us the extent of the universe. It has focused on predicted and unpredicted events.
So did the LHC, and will continue to do.
The pictures just do not look as nice as the photos Hubble can make.
Duhoc said:
But what else does it promise to do?
Finding the fundamental building blocks of the universe, or confirming we found all within the range of the LHC. The experiments have a chance to find dark matter, supersymmetry or particles from various other theories - we cannot predict their discovery simply because we do not know if those particles exist.
Duhoc said:
The United States started to build a collider then thought better of it.
That was mainly mismanagement that lead to a cost explosion. And the LHC was a project with similar goals, focusing on one big collider was not a bad idea. Now many US scientists work for LHC experiments.
 
  • #14
Chalnoth said:
Nope. No way to answer those questions.

And no, I don't think the Higgs discovery makes that decision any more objective.
There is some question about whether it was the Higgs boson that was discovered - see http://phys.org/news/2014-11-wasnt-higgs-particle.html
 

What is the Hubble telescope?

The Hubble Space Telescope is a space-based observatory that was launched into orbit by NASA in 1990. It has provided scientists with groundbreaking images and data about our universe.

What is the Large Hadron Collider?

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a particle accelerator located at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Switzerland. It is the largest and most powerful particle collider ever built and is used to study the smallest particles of matter.

What are the main differences between Hubble and LHC?

The main difference between the Hubble telescope and the LHC is their purpose. Hubble is used for observing and studying the universe, while the LHC is used for studying particles and their interactions. Additionally, Hubble is a space-based telescope, while the LHC is located underground.

What kind of discoveries have been made by Hubble and LHC?

Hubble has made many significant discoveries, including the first evidence of dark matter, the expansion rate of the universe, and the first images of planets outside of our solar system. The LHC has also made important discoveries, such as the confirmation of the Higgs boson particle and the detection of new particles and forces.

Which one provides a bigger return on investment?

It is difficult to compare the return on investment for these two projects as they have different goals and impacts. Hubble has significantly advanced our understanding of the universe and has a strong impact on public interest and education. The LHC, on the other hand, has contributed to groundbreaking scientific discoveries and has potential applications in various fields. Ultimately, both projects have provided significant returns on investment in their respective areas.

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