Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

The John Kerry of Iraq

  1. Oct 18, 2004 #1

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

    Matthew Wisdom; Hero or villain? A man of conscience who spoke the truth?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 7, 2005 #2
    I think I am in a unique position to answer that question...Matthew Wisdom is my son. Here's a quote for you "All that has to happen for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". I could not be more proud of my son, he went through the proper chain of command and he told the truth. He faced tremendous pressure to conform, being the newest and youngest member of the 372 MP Company. He witnessed the events at Abu Graib and was invited by some of the accused to participate and he declined in disgust. He asked to be reassigned away from the "hard site" so that he would not be involved in what was obviously improper. This was the extent of his involvement until the investigation began after Darby gave the photos to CID. After that, Matthew testified as required by the Military Code of Conduct and Military Law. He is a hero without a doubt.
     
  4. Jun 7, 2005 #3

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Welcome to PF and thanks so much for posting. And I couldn't agree more.

    Please tell Matthew thank you.
     
  5. Jun 7, 2005 #4

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    I agree that he's a hero, but it is disrespectful to him to compare him to Kerry. Spec. Wisdom actually saw what he testified about and he reported it immediatly - Kerry vouched for second-hand accounts of fabricated stories, after the fact. That's cowardace. And he's lucky that what he had to say is what people wanted to hear, otherwise he could have been charged with purjery or even treason.
     
  6. Jun 7, 2005 #5

    Ivan Seeking

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Thanks for the Fox News version.
     
  7. Jun 7, 2005 #6

    Art

    User Avatar

    Well done Mathew Wisdom. It takes real guts to go against the herd.
     
  8. Jun 7, 2005 #7
    :rofl: Kerry lost good friends in the war, so I believe his disappointments with the war were sincere. Was his testimony to congress also to get his name known to further his political career? Probably. However words like perjury or treason--that's Fox News spin for sure.
     
  9. Jun 7, 2005 #8

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Treason and perjury are my opinion for sure - but the facts in the 2nd sentence are facts. Whatever you want to call it, they did two very different things.
     
  10. Jun 7, 2005 #9

    Art

    User Avatar

    Can somebody remind me what was G Bush jr's and D Cheney's war record like in Vietnam?
     
  11. Jun 7, 2005 #10
    If I understand what you are referring to, I agree with the first half, but not with the word fabricated. Nor cowardice. Once again, opinion not fact.
     
  12. Jun 7, 2005 #11

    Pengwuino

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    The President served in the National Guard and piloted an F111 interceptor jet i believe for about 5 or 6 years. There was a huge controversy over this although most of the attacks on his military career have not been backed up by factual data.

    According to what i foudn on google, no one cares about cheney's record lol. Someone mentions he is a war vet... but absolutely nothing beyond that... so who knows if he even has a war record.
     
  13. Jun 7, 2005 #12

    Pengwuino

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    I guess Fox News is the only news station familiar with military law or the Constitution :rolleyes:
     
  14. Jun 8, 2005 #13

    SOS2008

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    This has been discussed before, whether serving in the National Guard can be compared to seeing action in Vietnam as Kerry did (because many see the Guard as a way to avoid serving in the military proper). And just because you are in denial about the matter does not mean Bush's failure to complete full service in the Guard has not been backed up by factual data. I’ve posted on this before with information found by the Boston Globe (which I'd be happy to provide again upon request), however since some members may not approve of that source, here is another more acceptable source:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy

    George W. Bush Service Record Graph:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Reserves2a.gif

    I couldn't find anything at all about Cheney having a military record. If he does, and the information is not readily available, I'd say it's rather suspicious. Since it sounds like he may be reconsidering a run for presidency in 2008 (good Lord :yuck: ), we best be getting on it, huh?
    Just because FOX is essentially state sponsored news?
     
  15. Jun 8, 2005 #14

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Fabricated, as in lies: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/10/19/203211.shtml
    This is something a lot of liberals failed to understand about the impact of Kerry's "Reporting for duty" tactic: the SBV may have gotten all the press, but Kerry's "Winter Soldier" testimony is what was really awful.

    edit: Regarding "cowardace", that's also my opinion, but again there is a fact behind it: the fact that Kerry reported these things after he left Vietnam. If he witnessed anything, it was his responsibility to report it immediately.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2005
  16. Jun 8, 2005 #15

    Art

    User Avatar

    First Hollywood rewrote the outcome of the Vietnam war and now some people are trying to rewrite the history of the way the war was conducted. What's next? The war in Vietnam started because the N Vietnamese invaded Texas? Funny I thought it was supposed to be the 'victor who gets to write history' obviously there are exceptions to this maxim.
    Do you remember the huge outcry in recent years particularly from America when Germany started to drop references to the holocaust in it's schools' history courses and more recently when Japan began to downplay it's wartime atrocities. I'm sure Russ you will find some pre-programmed rightwing republican rebuttals to this line of reasoning no doubt justifying why America's rewrite of history is 'different' and 'special' but I doubt many people will fall for this type of blatant propaganda rubbish apart from those brought up on a diet of cowboy and indian films, where the good guys always wore the white hats. For them it reinforces their already simplistic, blinkered view of America's role in world affairs.
     
  17. Jun 8, 2005 #16

    Art

    User Avatar

    I dug up this about Cheney. Hardly a position of strength from which to criticise Kerry

    "Cheney Had "Other Priorities" During Vietnam War

    Cheney Had "Other Priorities" During Vietnam War. Vice President Dick Cheney received five deferments during the Vietnam War from 1963 to 1966, a period of heightened American commitment in Vietnam. He later dismissed questions about his failure to serve by simply saying, "I had other priorities in the '60s." [McGrory, Washington Post, 7/27/00; Geyer, Chicago Tribune, 2/6/04; Arizona Republic, 1/22/04]

    Cheney and Bush Campaign Distort Record of Cheney's Deferments. The Washington Post reported in 1991 that Cheney received five deferments, four 2-S student deferments and one under the 3-A classification -- "registrant with a child or children; or registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents." In his Senate confirmation hearing, Cheney said he "would have obviously been happy to serve had I been called," which contradicting his earlier statement, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service." Bush staff members said Cheney received only three deferments, two for school and one for being a new father. [Washington Post, 4/3/91; Des Moines Register, 8/2/00]"
     
  18. Jun 8, 2005 #17

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Art, you didn't mention John Kerry in either of those posts. :confused:
     
  19. Jun 8, 2005 #18

    Art

    User Avatar

    Have another look Russ. Where you see Kerry, both in the quote to which I was replying in the first post and in the first line of my second post you can assume that it is John Kerry who is being referred to. (equally :confused: )
     
  20. Jun 8, 2005 #19

    russ_watters

    User Avatar

    Staff: Mentor

    Lemme rephrase: nothing you wrote in either post is about John Kerry. Are you just trying to change the subject, or what?
     
  21. Jun 8, 2005 #20

    Art

    User Avatar

    I see, "well say what you mean and mean what you say" as the Cheshire cat said to Alice in Wonderland.

    It's a sort of word association thing, the thread was originally about Matthew Wisdom, next it was Kerry, then you mentioned cowardice and I immediately thought of Bush jr and his sidekick for some reason.

    Russ, any ideas about what the pressing engagements were that caused Cheney to miss the war?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2005
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook

Have something to add?