Is the 'Real World' in 'The Matrix' Really Real?

[fomenkoa]

"The Matrix" Mistake?

In the movie "The Matrix", Neo has feelings that his world is not real. He discovers he is right when he meets Morpheus, who transports him into the “real world”

My problem is that Neo all of a sudden stops wondering , and blindly accepts the “real world” as “real”….Clearly the “real world” can be just another matrix created by some more advanced robots!

Why does Neo, and the Nebuchanezzar crew blindly accept the “real world” as “real” when they have had the experience of finding out that they were wrong about the real world before??

Anton

 

[imabug]

because the screenwriters wrote it that way?

 

[fomenkoa]

No kidding. Why did the screenwriters write it that way?

 

[T@P]

hmm i guess its cause, well, cmon, waking up from one matrix is enough! (that last movie could have been a lot better...)

 

[russ_watters]

Have you seen the other two movies yet? They raise questions (never answered) about whether the real world really is real.

And if you haven't seen it, you must immediately see "The Thirteenth Floor."

 

[fomenkoa]

Have you seen the other two movies yet? They raise questions (never answered) about whether the real world really is real.

Yeah, I've seen the other two movies. However, I didn't notice that they rased questions about the real world

Have you seen the other two movies yet? They raise questions (never answered) about whether the real world really is real.

And if you haven't seen it, you must immediately see "The Thirteenth Floor."

Yes! I've seen the 13th Floor. It was a wonderful movie. Once again, the main hero of that movie keeps complaining that he is "not real" because he discovers that he's a computer simulation. However, at the end of the movie when he is "made real" he never questions the fact that they may be once again computer simulations. He blindly acknowledges that it is the "real world"

 

[russ_watters]

Yeah, I've seen the other two movies. However, I didn't notice that they rased questions about the real world...

Its subtle - how do Neo's powers extend to the real world, for example?

Sorry if I'm not giving you any answers, but I'm not sure this paradox is resolvable. This may just go back to freewill: life/reality are what you make them. You are real if you choose to be.

 

[quantumdude]

Why does Neo, and the Nebuchanezzar crew blindly accept the “real world” as “real” when they have had the experience of finding out that they were wrong about the real world before??

Good question, but I don't think it can be answered. There is always the possibility there is always another "Plato's cave", no matter how many you escape from. Russ pointed out Neo's powers extending to the "real world". That would make me suspicious on the one hand. But on the other, what would make me think that I should not have those powers in that world?

 

[russ_watters]

Russ pointed out Neo's powers extending to the "real world". That would make me suspicious on the one hand. But on the other, what would make me think that I should not have those powers in that world?

Ugh, good point I never thought of - why should we assume that those powers are abnormal? Morpheus would say that rules like gravity really exist in the real world, but how would he know? Maybe the way it was simulated in the Matrix is the way it really works?

The citizens of Zion left the Matrix because they realized they could do things that didn't fit their preconcieved notions of reality. They could jump a long way because it was possible and they knew it - but still they all assumed it wasn't possible in the "real world." What if it was? Maybe it wasn't the Matrix's approximation of reality that was flawed - maybe it was just their preconcieved understanding of reality.

 

[FZ+]

Which opens a whole new can of worms. Where does this preconceived understanding of reality come from? Why aren't the matrix designers smart enough to realize that they could manipulate the human notions of reality to drastically simplify the matrix, and suppress any possibility of rebellion? In short - like newspeak in 1984.

 

[russ_watters]

Which opens a whole new can of worms... Why aren't the matrix designers smart enough to realize that they could manipulate the human notions of reality to drastically simplify the matrix, and suppress any possibility of rebellion? In short - like newspeak in 1984.

Maybe they did!

 

[itstantrum]

The way of true

Ok, I'm from Belgium, I'm 14 yo and I love to think about everything. I'm sorry for my basic English, 'cause it is only the first year then I learn this language, but I do my best. I'll try to understand you: I always try to understand things! That's why I already can say it in english and that's why I'm in this forum.

What I find strange it is the fact that we only know ONE reallity. This reallity is everything we can see, believe or imagine. So, if you just imagine another reallity, this one will not be anotherone, but the sameone as our. So if you're just ok with me, you believe in the possibility of the existence of another reallity, that's making this reallity enter in our reallity. So, that's the proof of there's only one reallity.So, I don't understand why everyone here try to know if we are real or not. For me, as I sayd before, we are all reall because we can see, believe, and imagine usself.But... When you'll die. When everybody will forget you. When nobody will want to think about you because nobody know you due exist, then you will not be in our reallity. You don't will be anything fo us. So, if you don't believe, believing became nothing. Don't imagine and imagination became nothing. Don't think and thinking became nothing. Then reallity will don't exist and there will be no any problem of existentialism. And I'll can sleep.

 

[quantumdude]

What, did you go to the bathroom when Neo met the Architect in the second film? :rofl:

Which opens a whole new can of worms. Where does this preconceived understanding of reality come from? Why aren't the matrix designers smart enough to realize that they could manipulate the human notions of reality to drastically simplify the matrix, and suppress any possibility of rebellion?

They did that. Remember that the version in the movie is the 6th version, and each time a "systemic anomaly" (aka "The One") arose because, as Neo "adequately put it, 'The problem is choice'".

The difficulty was alluded to in the first film by Smith when he was talking to Morpheus. He said that the first Matrix was a utopian paradise, but "entire crops were lost" because people wouldn't accept the programming. It was the Oracle ("an intuitive program") who found that most subjects would accept the program if given a choice, even if they were only aware of it at a subconcsious level.

 

[russ_watters]

They did that. Remember that the version in the movie is the 6th version, and each time a "systemic anomaly" (aka "The One") arose because, as Neo "adequately put it, 'The problem is choice'".

The difficulty was alluded to in the first film by Smith when he was talking to Morpheus. He said that the first Matrix was a utopian paradise, but "entire crops were lost" because people wouldn't accept the programming. It was the Oracle ("an intuitive program") who found that most subjects would accept the program if given a choice, even if they were only aware of it at a subconcsious level.

I think that makes Neo the 6th iteration from the 3rd version of the Matrix (the architect said he failed twice). The Matrix wasn't destroyed between those 6 Neos, only Zion.

 

[russ_watters]

What I find strange it is the fact that we only know ONE reallity. This reallity is everything we can see, believe or imagine.

Welcome to Physicsforums!

I can imagine being Tiger Woods (because of his golf skills or his wife...? :!) ) That doesn't make it reality. But you can go further: there may be other realities beyond even our imagination. How would we know?

 

[quantumdude]

I think that makes Neo the 6th iteration from the 3rd version of the Matrix (the architect said he failed twice). The Matrix wasn't destroyed between those 6 Neos, only Zion.

I don't want to get too into the movie script here, because I assume that the movie was intended to be used as a philosophical thought experiment, but the versions of the Matrix are defined by the Architect to begin and end with the systemic anomalies.

What I find strange it is the fact that we only know ONE reallity. This reallity is everything we can see, believe or imagine. So, if you just imagine another reallity, this one will not be anotherone, but the sameone as our.

Well, how would you explain the fact that we can imagine realities in which, say, things fall up instead of down?

Back to FZ:

Which opens a whole new can of worms. Where does this preconceived understanding of reality come from?

This gets back to the "What is normal?" question asked in a recent thread. Neo's preconceived understanding of reality comes from the same place ours does: observing many many subjects, and abstracting what is "normal" (in this case, normal human abilities) from the abilities of the majority of people. Now if he accepts that he is "The One" in one world, then discovering that he has special powers in "the real world" can lead him to a couple of different conclusions:

1. He is also "The One" in "the real world". Not too far fectched, because if you can dodge bullets in the Matrix and that seems real, then why can't you stop sentinels in another world that feels equally real?

on the other hand...

2. He is in another Matrix. This, too, is not too far fetched. If the machines can feed a reality into his mind, then it is possible that they are still doing it.

Descartes' evil demon sure is much harder to exorcise without assuming a benevolent god!

 

[hypnagogue]

Well, how would you explain the fact that we can imagine realities in which, say, things fall up instead of down?

I'm not sure you and Russ are interpreting itstantrum's post in the way s/he intended. For instance, if we imagine a reality where things fall up, that imagined reality (qua mental object) is still a subset of the reality we inhabit, so long as we define that 'reality' in such a way that it includes our thoughts (which should be an uncontroversial way to use the word 'reality').

 

[quantumdude]

I'm not sure you and Russ are interpreting itstantrum's post in the way s/he intended. For instance, if we imagine a reality where things fall up, that imagined reality (qua mental object) is still a subset of the reality we inhabit, so long as we define that 'reality' in such a way that it includes our thoughts (which should be an uncontroversial way to use the word 'reality').

A-ha. Now I get it.

So, I don't understand why everyone here try to know if we are real or not

Speaking for myself, I care about it for the same reason the characters in the Matrix care about it. It's important to me to know 'what's going on' around me, to the greatest extent possible. If I were stuck in Plato's cave and this fact were brought to my attention (with convincing evidence, of course), I'd want to know how to get out and experience the one reality in the truest possible sense.

 

[Brad Barron]

Because a perfect script doesn't exist?

 

[connect]

The key theme represented by the matrix is the outer 'earth' and the inner 'world'.

• The 'real' reality is the one in which people exist.
• The 'simulated' reality is the one that exists in people.

The 'simulated' reality is in effect the mind/spirit, Neo is spiritually 'bullet proof' because he 'knows himself', he knows the 'real' reality but in his mind he can fly.

 

[Deanalator]

I had a theory between the second and third movie that the oracle created xion to satisfy the .1% or whatever of the people in the matrix who were not satisfied by the reality offered by the matrix. This second level of control would represent anti-conformistisim, and the people who always need to be fighting against something to be happy.

There are many things in the architects speech that gave me this idea, not to mention neo's ability to attack the robots when they were in xion, and smiths ability to enter into the body of that one guy.

In my scenario, the oracle would have been made to ensure that every person hooked into the matrix is in a place where they do not want to question reality, and thus controlling the entire population from all angles.

That would have been a fun third movie, but the real third movie was fine :-) I think the third movie was mainly about how the definition of sentience is the belief in choice.

 

[TENYEARS]

The matrix is about real life. When Neo wakes up he found out that he was asleep and now he can control aspects of the dream. Then he can control it at will. Then later he finds that he has power in this world because this world is also a dream. That happened when he halted the machines as they came after him. If you do not know it yet this is a representation of our lifes. When you dream you can also realize it is a dream in the midst of the dream. You can take control, fly create and actually contact other humans who are asleep or in some cases. In some cases the Dead. As one progresses there is overflow into this "physical life". Things begin to happen which happen in the dream. One realizes that one can do it in this life too. That is the sequence of events. The matrix is actually based on reality. The greatest example is the fact that 99% do not understand the movie. You can see it in the explanations of what they believe which gives the movie even greater credibility. For it mirrors life so closely. The people do not want to wake up for they are content where they are. The pressue to wake up will come...

 

[theriddler876]

it's like the experiment where babies were made to walk across a cliff covered by plexiglass, a young baby does not yet understand how the world operates and would willngly go across. a baby is learning every day, now if you could show that babie that objects fall up, that's what he would learn and anything else beyond that would puzzle him

 

[phoenixthoth]

The pressue to wake up will come...

Why and when (not that the 'when' matters too much)?

Note: I'm not asking how you know this.

 

[Sabine]

ok fomenkoa i have read your comments well before asking this question you should define what's "real" some people thinks that real is what we see, others what we beleive, or what we feel. a person needs a real things to live with this make me remenber this quote : what if evrthg u've known evrthg u've lived with never truly existed, i think we'll be all mad. well in my definition of reality i think it is based of evidence and beleif.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

If you enjoy fiction regarding the concept of what is real and not real then you might enjoy a lot of Philip K. Dick's work. One named Ubik is pretty much based on the scenario that you are talking about, "when do I know that I am in the real world?". Three Stigmata Palmer is also another one that has a similar theme but is more like BTL from Red Dwarf.