The perfect world

[nix]

The perfect world..the perfect society..Can such a thing exist? How? Would it be better than what we have now?

 

[Rockazella]

I think it could probably be a little better than what we have now.(wish there was a sarcastic face)

IMO a perfect society would be based on total freedom. However, before you have total freedom, you must have a society completely free of insanity. To rid the world of insanity would require people able to recognize what is truly holding individuals down. I believe there are many hidden, or just not widely recognized obstacles that are holding people down, and degrading society as a whole.

Once that stuff is all cleard up, society can then be free. people would be able to prosper with much greater ease, and I believe the road to true enlightenment (or whatever you want call it) will be so much clearer to everyone.

And yes, I certainly think this is possible.

 

[THANOS]

I was under the impression that our world is perfect. Whats going on?

 

[FZ+]

I was under the impression that our world is perfect. Whats going on?

I kinda agree. After all, where do you think our sense of perfection came from? It came from around us, a sense of integrating what we experience into our system of values.

What this doesn't mean though is that we become stagnant, rather, to me, perfection is only a matter of perception, and perception changes constantly with the changing world, or becomes useless.

However, before you have total freedom, you must have a society completely free of insanity.

Isn't this a contradiction in terms? To be rid of insanity, you must force all people to think in the way we deem sane, perhaps arbitarily so. To do this would be to deny them the freedom of their own mind, and so turn total freedom into total totalitarianism.

 

[Gale]

I don't think a perfect world is possible. Least not if humans, with all their human tendencies, are a part of it. I think its sort of human nature to always try and make things better, so no matter how good things get, we'll always think we could make it better.

 

[megashawn]

Ya, what she said.

Not to mention the world thrives on corruption, and things not being perfect. To many jobs depend on peoples misfortune and/or criminal behavior.

So, unless we can figure out a way in which money is obsolete, and people can get the basic needs of life without much effort, I doubt we will ever reach perfection.

And as FZ says, if we evolve into a society where even the way we think is regulated, well, that would suck more then it does now.

And I'm also curious as to your definition of perfect. Like Thanos said, its already perfect.

Its all about what we make of it.

 

[THANOS]

Perfect is finding balance when there is none. Perfect is accepting and enjoying the good and bad that exist within our common reality. For those who deem our world as imperfect see it that way because of a choice to which alignment means perfect. But to accept and enojying our perfect world you must accept that pain is a part of the perfect family. For we may exile an evil sibling but we can not truly deny that evil being of being in the bloodline.

 

[nix]

I understand what you mean, that our world is perfect as it is, but I am assuming you have a pretty comfortable life. What about all the people that suffer daily (the people living in warzones, or in dire poverty, or people that don't have enough money to feed themselves), surely they don't think that our world is perfect.

By the way...when i asked if a perfect world be better than what we have now..i meant that to have a perfect world, would people have to be controlled and restricted...is the sacrifice of your "freedom" worth a perfect world?

 

[THANOS]

I know of what you speak of and yes i do agree people can easily perceive our perfect world as imperfect due to poverty and wars. Yet no matter how bad ones life can be, we will always have that choice to see it as a bad thing or good.
Like i said, we can choose to exile the suffering and pain from our perfect world, but ultimatly we can not deny that suffering and pain is a part of our perfect world. If you see a perfect world is without pain then your perfect world is without emotion.

 

[Rockazella]

Well okay fellas and gale, I understand your points. However, I feel that mine might need a bit of clarification.

Perhaps I should first post the dictionary's definition of perfect, just so we can start from common ground(there are two that could apply):

perfect: 1. complete in every way and having no faults or errors 2. being as good as possible.

I was under the impression that our world is perfect. Whats going on?

Thanos- I suppose if your going by the second definition, you might interpret the present world as being as good as it can be. However I do not. The reason I don't is simply because I can imagine a better world, one without starving people, without corruption and without all the the other various perversions.

I kinda agree. After all, where do you think our sense of perfection came from? It came from around us, a sense of integrating what we experience into our system of values

What this doesn't mean though is that we become stagnant, rather, to me, perfection is only a matter of perception, and perception changes constantly with the changing world, or becomes useless.

FZ- My sense of perfection is only coming from my understanding of those definitions.

Again with the second defintion you are free to perceive/place perfect at any level you'd like. Though it's important to note here that if you choose to perceive this as a perfect world, that means you can not imagine a better world.

quote:
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However, before you have total freedom, you must have a society completely free of insanity.
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Isn't this a contradiction in terms? To be rid of insanity, you must force all people to think in the way we deem sane, perhaps arbitarily so. To do this would be to deny them the freedom of their own mind, and so turn total freedom into total totalitarianism.

I'll phrase what I said a little better:
Before total freedom is practicle or even a positive state for society, society would need to be free of insanity.

Ok, so FZ, your saying a totally free society would be one where people can choose to be insane if that's what they prefer. Nuther case wher a defintion might be helpful (two of em again):

Sane: 1. having a normal healthy mind; rational 2. showing good sense; sensible

I think we can both agree that there are many cases where some individual doesn't seem to be capable of rational thinking in a particluar subject(maybe in every subject).that guys inadility to act rationally in that subject can be considered insanity. Even if he isn't what you call a raving lunatic, he can still be insane when it comes to that subject. In this case, whatever is causing his irrationality is below his awareness. So to sum that up...he is not being the cause of his irrationality, his irrationalty is being caused by something he is not fully aware of.

With proper handling you can clear up that 'thing' that is causing his inability to be rational, thus giving him back his ability to think rationally. And that ability to think rationally is what I deem sane. If for some reason he then chooses to be a dickhead and act in an irratinal way...great, fine, whatever. As long as he has the ability to think rationally, he is still sane, and he can still come live in my free perfect world.

This might be repetitive,but here it goes...
By saying society has to be free of insanity, I am no way, no how, saying we'd need to control the way people think. I'm merely saying all people would have to have that ability to think rationally in all circumstances.

I don't think a perfect world is possible. Least not if humans, with all their human tendencies, are a part of it. I think its sort of human nature to always try and make things better, so no matter how good things get, we'll always think we could make it better.

Gale- If your referring to technology, I totally agree. Technology and the standards of living that it affects can always be improved. In that sense you can say that perfection can never be reached, because tomorrow it will be better.

So in light of this I will say that my forementioned 'perfect world' only refers to the condition of man himself, and more specifically the condiction of mans mind.

OKAY, I feel like I've said enough. So for the rest of you who doubted me...go to hell! No, but I hope what I've already said here makes my point clearer...whether you see it to be correct or not.

 

[FZ+]

FZ- My sense of perfection is only coming from my understanding of those definitions.

Yes, but I am pointing to these words:

perfect: 1. complete in every way and having no faults or errors 2. being as good as possible.

The thing is, who decides what is good? Or what constitutes a fault or error? This is where I think the trouble of perception comes in, because our values that let us decide good/bad, perfect/imperfect is based on the society we live in.

And we can look at the phrase "as possible". If we agree with my first premise (which you may well not...), we can get out of this problem quickly by interpreting this world to be indeed as good as possible, at this time.

I think of a dynamic perfection, where the bounds of possibility, and our visions of fault and flaw change over time. At each moment, our world is perfect within itself. But with each other moment, it changes and perfection changes with it.

Sane: 1. having a normal healthy mind; rational 2. showing good sense; sensible

Now, let's look at this one. The first definition clearly hinges on the concept of normality. What is normality? My dictionary defines it as relating to the usual, or average of a society. Needless to say, the enforcement of sanity which would neccessitate the repression of any minority thought, can only lead to loss of real freedoms. Sanity is in this respect like "health", that it is an illusionary, statistical state, and that humanity thrives by deviating from it.

And that ability to think rationally is what I deem sane.

Now, we tackle definition number 2. Who decides sense? Who conceives of rationality?

To all fanatics, they believe that their actions are purely rational. And so again, if we are really to eliminate irrationality, we would end up repressing.

But if we are talking about the ability to think rationally, I honestly can't see the need. I would say that most people who are not stuck in jail or pumped up on drugs or are in a coma can think in a way to conform to anyone else's sense of rationality. Can you give an example of this insanity you speak of?

 

[Mattius_]

Once we identify 'The God Particle', we will finally whipe away the falseness of free-will. Once we whipe that out, Goodbye to all wuss philosophy. Hello scientific philosophy. Once we get a few great minds to put a living guide together, we will publish it and base every government from then to eternity on the ideal state of living.

 

[Rockazella]

First...
FZ, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

Now, we tackle definition number 2. Who decides sense? Who conceives of rationality?

To all fanatics, they believe that their actions are purely rational. And so again, if we are really to eliminate irrationality, we would end up repressing.

But if we are talking about the ability to think rationally, I honestly can't see the need. I would say that most people who are not stuck in jail or pumped up on drugs or are in a coma can think in a way to conform to anyone else's sense of rationality. Can you give an example of this insanity you speak of?

Ok, I think you still don't really understand what I mean when I speak of an inability to be rational, or in other words having something your not fully aware of cause you to be irrational.

EZ example: Hypnotism... Let's say Sue gets hypnotized. Whenever she hears a bell ring, she barks like a dog. Bell rings, she barks. That's a simple example of what I mean by an irrational response. She dosn't hear the bell ring and then choose to bark, she just barks, and isn't all that aware of why. She doesn't really even question it.

So, how does that apply to real life situations of unconscious irrationality? Actually, it's very close to that example(except in most cases without a performing hypnotist)

Here's a more real life, every day hypothetical example: Jon is walking through a park and gets mauled by a dog. The dog barks a lot while running at Jon, and then bites him on the leg.

It's 30 years later. Still, whenever Jon sees a dog, or hears barking, he becomes(to an observer) very nervous looking. He sweats alot, and even his leg starts to hurt where the dog bit it 30 years ago. Jon may not even fully realize how nervous and uncomfortable he looks. Here again is an irrational hypnotic response.

Although I am making that particlar example up, I'm not making up this type of behavior. In actuality, believe it or not, these hypnotic responses are the cause of, and account for many of peoples problems and issues in life.

Anyway, if you understand that, reread what I've already said in earlier replies and it should all make more sense to ya.

 

[THANOS]

Lets say we get rid of starvation, wars, and get that better world that you imagine. It will not be flawless because flaws always exist. No matter how much you try to make things perfect you will always end up making it as good as possible.
What about death, isn't that one of our flaws? Ok so we get a way to become immortal now we create another flaw, getting sick of life after time.

As for not being able to imagine a better world is wrong. Although i may see our world perfect, does not mean that i can't imagine a better world. An example would be that you are the same person all your life. But that does not mean you can not change.

Unconditional love is what you must have with the world and accept it as making it as good as possible. Like any unconditional loving parent would agree that their children are making it as good as possible.

 

[Jikx]

I can imagine a perfect world already with undying love...


Person 1 - Please, you go throught the door first.

Person 2 - No! I insist, you go in first.

Person 1 - No! I Insist, you go first.

Person 2 - I could never, you have the absolute pleasure.


10 Days later, you see two bodies on the floor outside the door

 

[Mattius_]

lol reminds me of a simpsons episode where marge just gets out of road-rage class.

 

[dawidi]

a perfect world for all beings in it? i'd say the closest approximation of that would be a planet with one single person on it. no wars for territories, no crusades, probably enough food, and Robinson would spend his time just to do the necessary things to survive.
sure, it would be pretty boring and you'd not have anyone to tell how lonely you feel, and you'd not have the time to make any new inventions or scientific research... but at least nobody would fight you.

People in large groups are always stupid.

 

[Nibles]

Humans have evolved as much as they ever will. To evolve is to overcome change. What change is to overcome when we force our surroundings to change for us?

 

[Another God]

When i consider questions like this, I can't help but get around some of the simple evolutionary relationships which have been described in Sociobiology, and how they apply to humans no matter how much we wish we were 'above those stinkin animals'.

The second you have a perfect world full of love and giving and equality or whatever, then as soon as one person thought to themselves 'Hey, i can take and take and get everything I want for free.' they will have a huge advantage. They gain power, and the system...sorta collapses.

Society, just like ecology, needs to maintain an Evolutionary Stable System. It needs to reach a point of equilibrium in which the give and the take balance out at a point which is..'acceptable'. There will always be give and take. there will always be good and bad times/events/etc. The challenge is to create a society of people who are able to deal with these factors intelligently and practically. We need a society of people who are able to find positives in bad situations, who are able to solve problems (not make them), and who actually enjoy being alive.

My opinion.

 

[hamlet69]

what is perfection?

eye of the beholder, so the saying goes

but what's perfect for one person would be hell for another,

 

[photon]

another one of photons dumb ideas.

No one can snap their fingers, then have everyone all happy. No one can really enjoy life and light without experiencing the pains of death and darkness. Once one has experienced this, and understands just what a gift existence is, they will find that they don't need the things of the world to fill the holes in them, because they are complete. If such things were not so, nobody would be complete until they have a credit card, called within the next 10 minutes to receive a free box of pastries to come with their toaster oven that costs only 19.95, etc. In a perfect world, everybody knows darkness, and are content with with what they have.