The possibility of New Orleans disaster as psyops success

[oldunion]

I was trying to scrutinize the n.o. disaster to find weaknesses and flaws in the story. Media is not the best for giving this kind of info, so i looked online and got some information i found interesting and I am sure you all will too.

we will begin here http://www.rense.com/general67/femwont.htm with a list of the aid that fema turned down. Fema also cut police lines in three counties which prompted the police to station armed guards all over new orleans to turn back fema anywhere they could. so fema is there, they are not really helping, and it is starting to sound like an experiment...so ill move to my thesis

the new orleans disaster was staged to see how a populous would react in an emergency situation to complete government control. now obviously the hurricane was not produced by the government but they have known since 2003 http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2005/09/the_department.html [Broken] that the levee would break at a certain point and what the scenario would be like. yet for some reason the response was slow, help was turned down, and fema was controlling the situation to study and watch what happens when the government tells a frightened populous what to do.

there are now thousands in the astrodome (i think that's its name) that are NOT allowed to leave, and there are numerous reports of rape and other signs of disorder.

so as a scenario, what happens when a superweapon detonates on american soil, when their is civil war on american soil, or some other situation invoking general unrest? Notice the media is blocked out and receives no help from fema who does not promote media on the dead of n.o.; so basically you have fema telling a frightened bunch of people (fear is key) what to do, who have no media to rely on.

to me it seems as though they knew what was coming, what was going to happen when the levee broke and that it would indeed break, and they wanted to learn something from it

 

[Evo]

the new orleans disaster was staged to see how a populous would react in an emergency situation to complete government control. now obviously the hurricane was produced by the government but they have known since 2003 http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives...department.html [Broken] that the levee would break at a certain point and what the scenario would be like. yet for some reason the response was slow, help was turned down, and fema was controlling the situation to study and watch what happens when the government tells a frightened populous what to do.

Ridiculous is the only thing that comes to mind.

 

[Smurf]

I'm doing my own analysis of the situation. I'll post it sometime this week end when I'm done my research. You've got some good information oldunion, but the government-wants-to-wipe-out-the-people conspiracy doesn't fit.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

now obviously the hurricane was produced by the government but they have known since 2003

Did you mean for that to be a wasn't?
If not maybe this belongs in S&D.

 

[oldunion]

Did you mean for that to be a wasn't?
If not maybe this belongs in S&D.

thanks edited:

Im not saying the government wanted to wipe out the people, I am saying they felt it was an acceptable risk to take. the possibility of this being a psy op is something to keep in mind as a far-fetched but curiously interesting scenario.

As more information comes into this thread I am looking forward to some interesting discussion as i don't know much on the possibility of this being a conspiracy besides what i posted.

 

[russ_watters]

Ridiculous is the only thing that comes to mind.

I was going to say "creative", but ridiculous works too...

oldunion, the basic problem with your theory is that the level of control you are saying existed did not exist. The government is not confining people at the Superdome - its been empty for two days, and people never were confined to it. It was simply being used as a staging area for evacuations. The "mandatory evacuations" didn't become forced until two days ago, and even then, it was ordered by the Mayor, not FEMA.

 

[Smurf]

Im not saying the government wanted to wipe out the people, I am saying they felt it was an acceptable risk to take.

Oh. Well, duh. They've been neglecting those levees for decades. Ever Russ will agree with you on that one.

What exactly do you mean by 'psy op'?

 

[Evo]

I think people tend to forget how slow government always is in responding. I moved to Kansas in 1993 right after the devastating floods here. The flood waters had been receding for a few weeks when I got here and the realtor would point to something in the water and say, "see that? that's the roof of a building". This part of the country was destroyed by horrendous floods.

The Great USA Flood of 1993

The 1993 midwest flood was one of the most significant and damaging natural disasters ever to hit the United States. Damages totaled $15 billion, 50 people died, hundreds of levees failed, and thousands of people were evacuated, some for months. The flood was unusual in the magnitude of the crests, the number of record crests, the large area impacted, and the length of the time the flood was an issue.

The magnitude and severity of this flood event was simply over-whelming, and it ranks as one of the greatest natural disasters ever to hit the United States. Approximately 600 river forecast points in the Midwestern United States were above flood stage at the same time. Nearly 150 major rivers and tributaries were affected. It was certainly the largest and most significant flood event ever to occur in the United States

Tens of thousands of people were evacuated, some never to return to their homes. At least 10,000 homes were totally destroyed, hundreds of towns were impacted with at least 75 towns totally and completely under flood waters. At least 15 million acres of farmland were inundated, some of which may not be useable for years to come.

That was 12 years ago. It was mostly to sparsely populated areas which kept the loss of life and $$ damage down, but it was HUGE. How many of you remember this?

Most of you are too young to put Katrina into perspective.

http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/floods/papers/oh_2/great.htm

 

[Smurf]

Government? Or just your government?

 

[Art]

Ridiculous is the only thing that comes to mind.

Not least because it would assume an intelligence in gov't that is clearly lacking.

The government is not confining people at the Superdome - its been empty for two days, and people never were confined to it.

According to mumerous press reports and British tourists interviewed on TV following their return home they were not allowed to leave.

Those who went into the stadium were not allowed to leave. Many complained that they were being “treated like animals” and that the facility was “worse than a prison.” Little or no information was provided to these storm refugees.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/norl-s02.shtml

 

[russ_watters]

According to mumerous press reports and British tourists interviewed on TV following their return home they were not allowed to leave. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/norl-s02.shtml

Fair enough - Not that I consider that to be a credible source, but it is worth at least a look elsewhere to clarify that. Details are pretty sketchy there: at the same time it talks about people who were not allowed in and as of two days ago, it was empty. I'm wondering when people were not allowed to leave - during the hurricane or after? And where were they trying to go - just out of the superdome or back into the city? It also makes a difference if whoever made them stay only did so until the transportation was available to help them leave. The situation did not allow for a lot of options, there, and the specifics matter. They bussed roughly 50,000 people from a shelter that held 10,000.

Perhaps oldunion can adjust his theory to be only about the few thousand people in the Superdome, but for the rest of the city, it is tough to see control in what was often described as anarchy.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I saw this on the news here (the UK) a few days ago. They had video footage of hundreds of people screaming to get out. People were overheating, having breathing difficulties, etc. On top of that, they shut the lights off at night, and people were being raped, robbed, attacked, the works. Children were abandoned. One British couple took care of a child they found on her own, but the authorities demanded they move to a different part of the stadium and refused to let them take the child. The child was asleep at the time. Having found someone to take care of her, she went to sleep, only to wake up alone again. When the non-US citizens were taken out of the stadium, the Americans started attacking them, throwing stuff, trying to stop them leaving. People had to be smuggled out disguised as Red Cross and the like. I don't know if you get any of this in the US.

I'd rather die in a hurricane or flood than be subject to that.

 

[BobG]

Fair enough - Not that I consider that to be a credible source, but it is worth at least a look elsewhere to clarify that. Details are pretty sketchy there: at the same time it talks about people who were not allowed in and as of two days ago, it was empty. I'm wondering when people were not allowed to leave - during the hurricane or after? And where were they trying to go - just out of the superdome or back into the city? It also makes a difference if whoever made them stay only did so until the transportation was available to help them leave. The situation did not allow for a lot of options, there.

There's been a lot of gaps in the stories, suggesting there was a big link missing that officials expected to be there.

The Superdome was only expected to protect people who couldn't evacuate for the duration of the hurricane. Obviously, they couldn't leave during the hurricane. Immediately after the hurricane, when the extent of the disaster was evident, they also weren't allowed to leave (they were allowed on the catwalks to get some fresh air). There seemed to be an expectation that evacuation was imminent (the Superdome was never expected to shelter folks for days, hence the lack of supplies).

Sending the folks that were rescued by helicopter and boat to the Convention Center where there were virtually no supplies also seemed to imply the plan was for immediate evacuation of everyone sent to the Convention Center.

There was a major gap somewhere - either expected supplies didn't come in or the vehicles for evacuation didn't come in.

Traditionally, FEMA hasn't been a very responsive organization. States have been left to fend for themselves in making a first response and FEMA then pushes money towards them after the fact (that's tended to make it a nice place to put friends who have aided the administration). It was in the 90's, under Lee Witt, that FEMA became an effective first response organization. The return to the 'old' FEMA just seems more horrible because it's peak was such a short time ago.

Louisiana was not very well equipped to respond to the disaster either. A major player in their first response efforts had a limited capability. A third of their National Guard personnel and most of the equipment was in Iraq. The folks they were relying on to fill the gap wound up responding to the hurricane disaster in their own state and weren't available to deliver the assistance they'd promised to Louisiana.

None of that points to a conspiracy. It suggests a major segment of the response operation didn't come through as expected because major players did not have the same capabilities they had just five years ago.

 

[Anttech]

I'm wondering when people were not allowed to leave - during the hurricane or after?

After Russ, for days after, it was all over the news on the BBC. All the British tourist (plus everyone else) were NOT allowed to leave. Eventually they "sneaked" the Brits out as to not start a riot... Not just one person said this, but all the tourists that were interviewed said this...

El Hombre Invisible is correct. Unless of course the BBC isn't a credible source

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4214746.stm

 

[Astronuc]

I saw on CNN a homemade video by a couple of Brits from New Orleans. They arrived the day before Katrina and got stuck. They mentioned that the day after the hurricane, when the flooding began and hotel lost power, they were evacuated to the Superdome, where they spent a few days (they were not allowed to leave).

They were quietly removed from the Superdome so as not to cause a situation.

 

[DM]

Another strong reason for the Britons to be "sneaked" out of the superdome was because certain individuals and groups were racially discriminating them. A few scattered Britons were instructed to congregate with other British people in the superdome so racial attacks could be averted. Because the threat perpetuated to grow between the assailant groups, it was decided to evacuate the Britons.

 

[oldunion]

check out this link http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=107946 there is a blurp on psyops at the bottom, and the links on the right of the screen are also interesting. Basically the whole article is about the possibility of radio jamming coming from an American source.

I thought that the government was unprepared as well for some time, but the more i read the more it didnt make sense.

Web definition:
Psychological Operations or PSYOP or PSYOPS are planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to specific audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. The purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce attitudes and behaviors favorable to the originator's objectives.

There was a lot of control in new orleans, but not in the traditional sense; however, they neither wanted nor needed to have absolute power in the situation.

what they learned: How us citizens would react if detained en masse. Anyone seen "the Siege"?, the muslim detainment camps seemed controlled compared to what was happening at the superdome.

how people reason in situations of dire need, and what they will do to get what they need for survival. this is irrespective of the status of the individual in society as police also engaged in punishable activities.

how well people would listen to government mandates

how well the media could be controlled in this situation, how well it could be engineered for maximum propoganda success, how well it could be directed to different regions.

what the resistance percentage would be, what profile of a citizen would be likely to resist

what local government would do in an emergency (which more or less was turn to the federal government immediately), what the resistance would be-if any- to federal presence.

the organizational skills of groups without the use of popular forms of communication supplied by corporations (cell phones, internet)

etc

ill keep looking for more information supporting the possibility of a psyop success, but the information the government learned from this event is more than what money could buy.

 

[Amp1]

The site counterpunch.com [/URL] has a few good articles about the NO deb.. oops er catastrophe.

 

[DM]

It is in the public interest to disclose it. Also, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is reporting that no aircraft over New Orleans have been fired on over New Orleans or anywhere else in the area. Are the reports of shots being fired at aircraft an attempt by the Bush administration to purposely delay the arrival of relief to the city's homeless and dying poor? The neocons have turned New Orleans into Baghdad on the Mississippi.

Very interesting...

 

[russ_watters]

After Russ, for days after, it was all over the news on the BBC. All the British tourist (plus everyone else) were NOT allowed to leave. Eventually they "sneaked" the Brits out as to not start a riot... Not just one person said this, but all the tourists that were interviewed said this...

El Hombre Invisible is correct. Unless of course the BBC isn't a credible source

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4214746.stm

That still isn't all that clear - none of those accounts say that they were forced to stay, it says the military helped them leave. So what was keeping them there? There is a difference between "couldn't leave" and "forced to stay". If you have nowhere to go but into a flooded city of anarchy, its your circumstances that are forcing you to stay. But whatever - the semantic difference there isn't all that important to me. Either way, this conspiracy theory is still absurd.

 

[Art]

That still isn't all that clear - none of those accounts say that they were forced to stay, it says the military helped them leave. So what was keeping them there? There is a difference between "couldn't leave" and "forced to stay". If you have nowhere to go but into a flooded city of anarchy, its your circumstances that are forcing you to stay. But whatever - the semantic difference there isn't all that important to me. Either way, this conspiracy theory is still absurd.

Yes the conspiracy theory is absurd but there is a more than semantic difference between staying in the superbowl because they had nowhere to go and being held there at gunpoint as was the case.

I am not criticising the policy per se I can see why they were kept there - avoid looting, spread of disease, facilitate evacuation etc but having decided to direct people to go there and then pen them in, the authorities should also have ensured there was adequate food, water and security inside the dome until they could be evacuated.

A not too disimilar policy is now in effect in the astrodome, the difference being the people there have been told they can leave but if they do so they will not be allowed back in.

 

[SOS2008]

Based on the track record associated with this administration of poor planning, I find it unlikely that the disaster has been used experimentally. However, it is Martial Law in NO under which some enforcements are questionable, most of all supressing the media (e.g., footage of dead bodies is not allowed). This kind of thing is of concern.

 

[oldunion]

Based on the track record associated with this administration of poor planning, I find it unlikely that the disaster has been used experimentally. However, it is Martial Law in NO under which some enforcements are questionable, most of all supressing the media (e.g., footage of dead bodies is not allowed). This kind of thing is of concern.

Martial law has not been declared, a state of emergency has. Not identical but there are enough similarities. I've read contradicting reports on whether or not martial law has been declared and I am now convinced that it has not.

Why do you say there has been poor planning on behalf of this administration; could you list some instances?

 

[alexandra]

Why do you say there has been poor planning on behalf of this administration; could you list some instances?

Here's some information I found that seems to provide evidence of poor planning, oldunion:

2001: FEMA designates a major hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the three "likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country."

Summer 2004: FEMA denies Louisiana's pre-disaster mitigation funding requests. Says Jefferson Parish flood zone manager Tom Rodrigue: "You would think we would get maximum consideration...This is what the grant program called for. We were more than qualified for it."

June 2004: The Army Corps of Engineers budget for levee construction in New Orleans is slashed. Jefferson Parish emergency management chiefs Walter Maestri comments: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay."

June 2005: Funding for the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is cut by a record $71.2 million. One of the hardest-hit areas is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which was created after the May 1995 flood to improve drainage in Jefferson, Orleans and St. Tammany parishes.

More: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007023.php

alex

EDIT: And an interesting BBC article I've just seen:

Powell criticises storm response

Former US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said he fails to understand why better preparations were not made before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Two-thirds of Americans think President George W Bush could have done more to tackle the floods and damage in the south, one opinion poll suggests.
...
American political figures in both the Republican and Democrat parties have accused the authorities of responding slowly.
...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4229238.stm

 

[Informal Logic]

Martial law has not been declared, a state of emergency has. Not identical but there are enough similarities. I've read contradicting reports on whether or not martial law has been declared and I am now convinced that it has not.

Why do you say there has been poor planning on behalf of this administration; could you list some instances?

Last night in an interview, ABCs Brian Williams described NO as being under martial law now, and described how they too had automatic weapons raised at them though they clearly were not looters, terrorists, or what have you.

Back to the track record for poor planning, we can start with the invasion of Iraq...

 

[Smurf]

Whever I go down stairs and catch a glimpse of the TV I see something about Katrina. Often about some people being forced out at gunpoint or some such. Now, they may be crazy, but those crazies are still under martial law, declared or not.

 

[oldunion]

Whever I go down stairs and catch a glimpse of the TV I see something about Katrina. Often about some people being forced out at gunpoint or some such. Now, they may be crazy, but those crazies are still under martial law, declared or not.

declared or not is the key phrase. i read weapons were being confiscated, even licensed weapons-2nd ammendment.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes the conspiracy theory is absurd but there is a more than semantic difference between staying in the superbowl because they had nowhere to go and being held there at gunpoint as was the case.

Could you provide a quote where a person says he was held at the superdome at gunpoint? I may not have read that link closely, but I didn't see anything resembling that in it.

edit: I'm not posting this to argue over the semantics - I really want to know the facts of what happened in the Superdome. People are saying a lot of things that just don't make sense. It looks to me like people are filling in the gaps on the information with their own personal speculation about what they think might have happened - or worse, what they want to believe happened.

I'd really like to know what, exactly was stopping people from walking away from the Superdome. Was every exit guarded by soldiers? With all the chaos in there, did anyone try to leave? Did anyone try to simply walk past the guards (if there were any)?

Regarding martial law - that's a phrase I wouldn't expect the government to ever use. So there won't be any "declaration of martial law". But we have seen some things that resemble what we would normally associate with it.

 

[Skyhunter]

Based on the track record associated with this administration of poor planning, I find it unlikely that the disaster has been used experimentally.

But it would explain why Bush said "Brownie, your doing a heck of a job."

 

[edward]

I'd really like to know what, exactly was stopping people from walking away from the Superdome. Was every exit guarded by soldiers? With all the chaos in there, did anyone try to leave? Did anyone try to simply walk past the guards (if there were any)?

The only reason that I can think of is the situation itself. They had been brought to, or went to the superdome because they had been told it was to be their shelter. Even though the conditions inside were terrible, how would anyone have known that the conditions outside were any better?

Something kept them there, if it was only a perceived idea that conditions were more dangerous outside.

 

[Art]

Could you provide a quote where a person says he was held at the superdome at gunpoint? I may not have read that link closely, but I didn't see anything resembling that in it.

edit: I'm not posting this to argue over the semantics - I really want to know the facts of what happened in the Superdome. People are saying a lot of things that just don't make sense. It looks to me like people are filling in the gaps on the information with their own personal speculation about what they think might have happened - or worse, what they want to believe happened.

I'd really like to know what, exactly was stopping people from walking away from the Superdome. Was every exit guarded by soldiers? With all the chaos in there, did anyone try to leave? Did anyone try to simply walk past the guards (if there were any)?

Regarding martial law - that's a phrase I wouldn't expect the government to ever use. So there won't be any "declaration of martial law". But we have seen some things that resemble what we would normally associate with it.

Fox news were the original ones to say there was a lockdown at the convention centre and the superdome. There are numerous references to the broadcast on the web. Here's one

Last night on Hannity and Colmes, Shepherd Smith and Geraldo Rivera were both reporting from the Convention Center. Both of them reported that the refugees at the Convention Center have essentially ben in lockdown since Tuesday. Anyone who tried to leave by walking out the only unflooded path, I-10, had been turned back by armed blockades that had been set up "by the Federal Government." "Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds" of people were sitting on the "easily accessible bridge" had been sitting there for days, not able to cross, and without any deliveries of even water.

Rivera was begging that people be allowed to "walk away from here".

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476321/posts

 

[edward]

And for what ever reason they weren't leaving, people were still arriving.

The president and the governor both asserted Wednesday that everyone would be moving to a spiffier football stadium. But although Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco had announced at 11 a.m. a plan to evacuate the Superdome to Houston's Astrodome, Maj. Bush had received no information through mid-afternoon. By his estimate about 15,000 people remained in the Superdome, and more straggled in through the day, either wading in on foot or dropped off by a helicopter rescue effort that so far has plucked 3,000 people from the roofs of flooded homes.

(The Maj. Bush referred to was a national guard public relations officer.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/31/AR2005083102801_pf.html

 

[oldunion]

Army Corps of Engineers diver takes burnt concrete to forensics lab and explosives are identified


HalTurnerShow - New Orleans, LA -- Divers inspecting the ruptured levee walls surrounding New Orleans found something that piqued their interest: Burn marks on underwater debris chunks from the broken levee wall !

One diver, a member of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, saw the burn marks and knew immediately what caused them. He secreted a small chunk of the cement inside his diving suit and later arranged for it to be sent to trusted military friends at a The U.S. Army Forensic Laboratory at Fort Gillem, Georgia for testing.

According to well placed sources, a military forensic specialist determined the burn marks on the cement chunks did, in fact, come from high explosives. The source, speaking on condition of anonymity said "We found traces of boron-enhanced fluoronitramino explosives as well as PBXN-111. This would indicate at least two separate types of explosive devices."

The levee ruptures in New Orleans did not take place during Hurricane Katrina, but rather a day after the hurricane struck. Several residents of New Orleans and many Emergency Workers reported hearing what sounded like large, muffled explosions from the area of the levee, but those were initially discounted as gas explosions from homes with leaking gas lines.

"If these allegations prove true, the ruptured levee which flooded New Orleans was a deliberate act of mass destruction perpetrated by someone with access to military-grade UNDERWATER high explosives."

 

[Pengwuino]

whats the source?

 

[Pengwuino]

Fox news were the original ones to say there was a lockdown at the convention centre and the superdome. There are numerous references to the broadcast on the web.

Whoa referencing Fox news?