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The Powers of a Fourth-Dimensional Being.

  1. Sep 6, 2003 #1
    The "Powers" of a Fourth-Dimensional Being.

    I think the thing I've enjoyed the most about Prof. Kaku's lectures and books is the references to higher-dimensional beings, and their abilities. Michio Kaku has often said that they would be like "gods", and that is not an overstatement in any way.

    For example, a "god" is said to be omniscient. Well, if you were in a higher dimension, you would also be omniscient. To see why, I like the illustration of "Flatland", wherein the beings are all two-dimensional. In this two-dimensional world, there is no concept of the third dimension. Now, obviously skin evolved in order to protect the "insides" of a person's body, but there would be no reason for skin to have evolved in the third dimension, and so a third-dimensional person could "look down" on any Flatlander and see his/her insides as clearly as their outsides. A third-dimensional being would be able to perform delicate surgery on the heart of some Flatlander without ever piercing any skin. As far as the third-dimensional "god" is concerned, the skin of the Flatlander is but an outline.

    Now, this ability for omniscience has more applications than just dealing with people. Take for example, the houses of a Flatlander. As far as the Flatlander is concerned, the house is covered "all around" (except for the doors), but, to a third-dimensional person, the insides are as clearly visible as the outside.

    A jail, in Flatland, would be like a large circle, and thus would suffice, since it would cover the Flatlander "all around", and they would be unable to escape. However, if a third-dimensional being wished to assist this Flatlander, they could easily "lift" the Flatlander right out of the Jail. It would appear to any other Flatlander that their companion just "disappeared", and then "reappeared" on the outside.

    Of course, this third-dimensional "god" needn't be a kind being, and could just easily use his "powers" to punish a helpless Flatlander. After all, if a being were able to reach into your body, without your knowing about it, they could find any number of ways to kill you, before you ever had a chance to run away.

    Now, all of this talk about the third-dimensional being, and the Flatlanders, is really just an analogy. It may be that there are fourth-dimensional beings, that posses exactly the qualities that I've described above (along with many others), but they are able to do such things to us.

    You could be walking down the street one day, minding your own business, and see a sphere of flesh appear in front of you. So, you turn around, only to realize that there is another such "ball" of flesh behind you. The two balls of flesh close in on you, and then you feel an odd pressure on every part of your body (inside and out, and from all directions). As far as everybody else is concerned, you just disappeared. But, in reality, you have been lifted onto a higher dimension.

    Just in case you're wondering, none of this is really useful in your day-to-day life, but it's still fascinating to think of what powers a person would have, if they could just "rise above" the three usual dimensions.
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 7, 2003 #2
    Being carried into the fourth dimension by a big hand... I was thinking about that disappearing stuff. the manifestation of "me" in 3D+time will have to still be there. The 3D+time me would not be seen because I would be moving faster than light and I couldn't reflect it (speculation...speculation). So would I be able to pass through walls?
    On the other hand I can try to think geometrically. Let's think of 2 1D objects ( lines or geodesics) on a 2D object (a surface). Can I move one of the lines on the other side of the second? I guess so. Two translations inside the 3rd dimension and one translation in the direction orthogonal to the one of the line in the 2D space. I all the time the line is making its extradimensional travel no other line in the 2D space can cross it so it doesn't exist / can't be seen there. So I wouldn't exist in my 3D form and I could pass through walls.
    So now the question. What would we see during this travel? What kind of "light" does flow outside our 3D environment? What does that 4th dimension of objects reflect that a 4th dimension of the eye could catch?
  4. Sep 7, 2003 #3


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    Of course this is an analogy so we can make up the rules that seem good to us. But I would expect that our two dimensional perceptions would travel with us as we are lifted into the third dimension. Thus we would "see" along various planes in the 3-space, accidental and maybe rapidly changing planes as our sponsor moved us around and turned us in completely unknown (to 2-D people) 3-D rotations. This would likely be visual gibberish to us.
  5. Sep 7, 2003 #4
    To complicate matters further, a real four dimensional being might perceive us as living a lie. One of our three dimensions we perceive could be illusory. Hence the question of what exactly is and isn't a dimension may simply depend upon a pragmatic interpretation of the word. This is also supported by the findings of Chaos theory. Just exactly what the heck is a "fractional" dimension? How does it matter?

    Problems such as this have left string theory in the ambiguous and vague realm of the philosophical where it has been as hotly debated as it is pursued. Certainly it produces results, but what do they mean? Is it really physics, mathematics, or philosophy? Until it can be catagorized clearly its future remains uncertain as does the definition of dimension.
  6. Sep 8, 2003 #5
    How can we sure we are not already residing in a fourth dimension at least as large as the entire universe? How would one know whether or not they were traveling at a perpendicular to the three dimensions since his own 3D form travels with him? Could it be that we may have deduced scientific explanations of 3D objects embedded or poking through the surface of fourth dimension by the apparent movements of these objects within their 3D framework alone.
  7. Sep 8, 2003 #6


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    Meaning of Dimension

    http://www.superstringtheory.com/forum/bhboard/messages12/119.html [Broken] Links at this site.


    Dickt's <a href="http://www.superstringtheory.com/forum/philboard/messages14/9.html">comment</a> [Broken] in regards to the Higg's field

    <a href="http://www.superstringtheory.com/forum/cosmoboard/messages18/194.html">Big [Broken] Bang</a>, unification at such levels, and why is there not unification in our thought constructions?

    If a physicist crosses the room? <a href="http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/ideas/higgs.html">Click [Broken] on Cartoon</a>

    From <a href="http://superstringtheory.com/forum/dualboard/messages14/112.html">gravity [Broken] to supergravity</a>.

    We understand the complexity of gravity, and we undertand how complex it can become. What is the dimensional significance of this in our talks? What is the relevance of scale here. Table top experiments? Distance? Length? Metric functions and the analogies(quark to quark measure)?

    The determination for me is how we use energy even at the scale we do, and inthe world reality the weakness of the measure of gravity, and there is a direct correlation to energy at both the high energy levels and the low? Scale has to be a factor here inorde for us to understand how we move from euclidean geometries, very weak, to the higher gemeotires(plasma) very strong.

    I am definitily open to corrections here as I would like to push forward. The string's length and the measure of distance is very important in my developing understanding, as it represents not only the strong measure of planck length, but also the weak measure.

    In this respect to have unified the strong with the weak there would then be consistancy in thought construction because this then becomes a viable model for consciousness.

    You see?

    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  8. Sep 9, 2003 #7
    Why should you be moving faster than light?

    Actually, you wouldn't need to. In the two-dimensional analogy, the being that is "lifted up" into the third dimension, can "drop" back in wherever s/he pleases. Thus, I could "drop" drop into the middle of the Oval Office, but I wouldn't need to walk through any walls.

    Basically, there is no wall that faces the fourth dimension.

    I think I see what you are saying. However, as you can see, you are not really "passing through the wall", it's more like "disappearing" and "reappearing" on the other side.

    IIRC, string theory uses the higher dimensions to explain all of the "forces" in the style of General Relativity's explanation of Gravity. Thus, the electromagnetic force is explained as a warping of the fourth spacial dimension. If this is so, then there would be no "light" in our "extradimensional travel", since light is a result of a curvature of the dimension that we are now entering. Feel free to correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong on this particular point.
  9. Sep 9, 2003 #8
    How so?

    Where exactly is the uncertainty as to the definition of a "dimension"? It has always been explained to me that a "dimension" is a spacial or temporal "coordinate". Where's the mystery there?
  10. Sep 9, 2003 #9
    I would appear as moving faster than light to those left behind. I'm actually taking a shortcut by comparison to the way light must take, but not even I can know that as I suddenly see black in front of my eyes (you're right about there being no light unless there would be a fifth curved dimension. but what if light as we see it would be the manifestation of the curvature of this fifth dimension and not the fourth. how would 4D light look like? As wuliheron said, we probably won't know the difference).
    I'm beginning to be very upset with myself when I strugle with concepts like "pulled up" and I immediately think of the third spatial coordinate. I'll get over it. I need those Kaku's books and the time to read them. So I would need the books and a 0.75c capable ship to lengthen my day a little. I'm going off-topic. Please ignore this.
  11. Sep 9, 2003 #10
    Because the entropy of information is proportional to the surface area it could be one of dimensions is a holographic projection.

    The compactified dimensions and mirror world scenario of string theory resemble the fractional dimensions of fractal geometry more than traditional euclidean geometry. As accomodating and sweepingly descriptive as these theories are, they are also more vague and indeterminate in their basic axioms. What is a spacial-temporal coordinate that you cannot observe or point to as in the mirror world scenario? How can a spacial-temporal coordinate, a geometric point, be divided up?

    Such are apparent contradictions that remain unresolved and support the growing consensus among physicists that their definitions of spacetime must become more fuzzy if they are to make further progress.
  12. Sep 10, 2003 #11
    i'm considering the possibility that we already have a higher dimensional awareness. how do you explain it when our brains come up with ways of connecting three dimensional concepts and things in brilliant ways? it may be that we already have a higher dimensional awareness that we haven't fully tapped into yet. this would take the TOE into a philosophical/psychological direction that scientists may be unwilling to go. why be unwilling to go there if that's what the research indicates? (not that the research indicates that, yet)

  13. Sep 12, 2003 #12
    But how could a two-dimensional being be conscious of such a projection?
  14. Sep 12, 2003 #13


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    The Function of the Metric

    http://superstringtheory.com/forum/dualboard/messages11/644.html [Broken]

    The fourth dimenison is one of curvature. Is gravity and is time. To get to gravity, euclidean dimensions stop working. Minkowski takes over, and we are lead into non-euclidean geometries. Some of the early forbearers of this conception, were peole like Sacherri, the Jesuit priest and Gauss Riemann, Einstein, Kaluza and Klein. It is very important to take in the whole gammut, of the geometries, right from euclidean to topological formations.

    This is all correlated to the physics. Never mind four dimensions think about five if it is possible and we are dealing with the future?

    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  15. Sep 14, 2003 #14
    Re: The Function of the Metric

    Actually, sol, the temporal dimension is not called "fourth" because of any intrinsic property of it. It's number is just to set it apart from the other three that were known at the time. In the M-Theory paradigm (where there are 10 spacial dimensions) the temporal dimension is called the 11th.
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  16. Sep 16, 2003 #15
    Relativity presents a good analogy. At extremes of acceleration and gravity, the illusion of a universal steady flow of time breaks down. Now that we know this ratio exists, it may be possible to figure out extremes in which the illusion breaks down. In fact, we may already be witnessing these extremes and just not realize it just as it was realized what the implications of the Michealson-Morely experiment meant or the strange orbit of mercury.

    The nonlocal effects of QM already imply this kind of illusory holographic projection. Somehow things appear to move faster than light, yet we cannot send information or energy faster than light. The trick is to be able to predict such effects from a simple formula similar to e=mcc that does away with all the troublesome infinities of QFT, and would predict new things such as all the masses we observe.
  17. Apr 21, 2004 #16
    This is all very interesting as math theory and imagination. If we talk about dreams, which is an everyday objective experience shared by all humans, the fact is since we can't duplicate the oniric experience in a lab, is very subjective. Don't tell me about the RME as measured by electrodes and seen through closed eyelids cos we know the experience of time meanwhile we are dreaming is very objective as an experience but has a different ticking measuring mini-cycles that complete about 2 hours of dream per night. So, that is just an example of our ignorance regarding other facts that are making many theorist to explain the whole universe just as an hollographic illusion created out from bites! So, if a reality like oniric experience hasn't been solved neither well explained and is something shared by millions of people, who cares or who investigates the fewer observed phenomena messing around with parapsicology to say something? That approach is needed to investigate if Sai Baba can go through physical dimension like Christ appearing from nowhere passing through closed doors and presenting himself among disciples. That is spiritism realms although we can make the math calculations of the probability. Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscense.
  18. Apr 21, 2004 #17
    ....something like Mercurial twins in Matrix II...
  19. Apr 24, 2004 #18
    This brings up something that's always bothered me (which means it may be common knowledge I just haven't run across). We have multiple spatial dimensions, three of which we can all sense with our current biological forms, and at least one more we can kinda sort of imagine, and six more that puzzle me like the fascination with TV reality shows. Then we have TIME. We view it as the temporal dimension but there is only one (I know there are theories of multiple temporal dimensions but I don't see them with a big following either). What if TIME is the dimension needed to access the higher seven spatial dimensions? I know there are many paradoxes when we start messing with time, but what if that is what some of the higher dimensions are for, for controlling time? Or could it be possible for a 4-D person to curve time around himself in such a way as to control its effects? When we think of controlling time we always think of simply going backward or forward and that's what causes the paradoxes. What if it is more akin to having a "bubble" of time around you and using it to do things that would make you seem God-like because you could slow time down with respect to yourself only, speed it up or even suppress it completely? In fact, could the total suppression of time be what would make the higher dimensions accessible to us? If only I had more time...
  20. Apr 25, 2004 #19
    I was certainly glad to be corrected by mentat.

    But on the question of time, it has become something of a effort here to have this explained properly. In looking further I went to Einstein for a explanation.

    It is clear that this definition can be used to give an exact meaning not only to two events, but to as many events as we care to choose, and independently of the positions of the scenes of the events with respect to the body of reference 1 (here the railway embankment). We are thus led also to a definition of “time” in physics. For this purpose we suppose that clocks of identical construction are placed at the points A, B and C of the railway line (co-ordinate system), and that they are set in such a manner that the positions of their pointers are simultaneously (in the above sense) the same. Under these conditions we understand by the “time” of an event the reading (position of the hands) of that one of these clocks which is in the immediate vicinity (in space) of the event. In this manner a time-value is associated with every event which is essentially capable of observation.


    Two different perspectives became apparent here, that one questions whether the differents perspectives, raised other issues? Our perceptions of "time" and how it may appear to two different observers?

    For two people, we see different perspectives of the same thing.

    Einstein understood this, from the perspective of a dream, he had coming down the mountain, and viewing the cows in the field. What he saw, and what the farmer saw, as electricity travelled down the wire, and made the cows jump, was a difference in that perspective.

    To Einstein, they all jumped, but to the farmer, they jumped one at a time:)


    It makes it very difficult for simultaneity to exist here, but if one looks back to Penroses call for a new math, one can't help but wonder, how quanglement could have been such an issue, especially if two spheres can exist, and what happens on one, could easily have transmitted over a great distance, its mirror reverse?.

    Are we exorcising spooky?

    [I]In 1935 Einstein, together with the physicists Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen, concocted a 'thought experiment' in which quantum theory seemed to permit 'spooky' action at a distance, whereby a measurement made on one particle instantaneously determines the properties of another particle, no matter how great the distance between the two particles.

    Uncomfortable with this bizarre outcome, Einstein suspected that a still more fundamental theory underlies quantum mechanics (just as quantum mechanics underlies the older 'classical mechanics' of Isaac Newton). He invoked 'hidden variables' - quantities that do away with things like quantum uncertainty, but which cannot be measured directly. Bohr disagreed, arguing instead that we simply have to resign ourselves to the fact that quantum theory is counterintuitive.[/I]


    [I]Now Robert Gingrich and Christoph Adami of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California say that a boost can actually create spin or momentum entanglement, or both, between two particles that had neither to begin with. The speed change can also enhance entanglement in spin at the expense of momentum entanglement, or reduce them both. "If you can create [entanglement] just by moving with respect to what you're measuring, then seemingly you've created something from nothing," says Gingrich.[/I]

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  21. Apr 25, 2004 #20
    If one doesn't have the JPL at ones disposal, then one must use the equipment at hand. So I pursued active dreaming.

    In the dream, I was in an Ashram, somewhere, in Colorado. I was in a foreign room, with hardwood floors, and the main living and dining room were empty for sitting in meditation. There was a den and behind the couch there was a gingham covered "nest" for a little kid to read in. It was like one of those inflatable swimming pools in shape with stacked rings and a central area, only it was a padded form for comfort. So, I am looking at my hands, and examining the room, and I am right in the faces of these normal people talking to one another, they can't see me, I don't know them. The dining room door flies open, and out steps a robed man, middle eastern robes, but caucasian. Only he can see me. I go to him, and I say, "Please excuse me, I am practicing my dreaming, and I am looking for a teacher, on the dreaming side of my life." He looks me up and down, with the utmost contempt and says, "I'll be sure and tell the Shah."

    I can't get any respect, even in the fourth dimension. But the beginning and the end of this dream had miraculous properties.

    It began with a hand beaconing me out of the thin air. I took the hand, and in it was everything, every passion, every affection, every fire I had ever known. (They call this the beloved, in mysticism.) When I grasped the hand, I accelerated to be a cube of white light that filled the room, then this accelerated to a high blue frequency, then I compressed to become a line, that went somewhere. I don't remember what happened there, except for the snippet at the ashram.

    Returning, the dream was split. There was a woman in repose, and I remember an enormous affection for her, she was smiling in her sleep, and I could feel this honey narcoleptic quality around her mouth. I could see a giant blue scrim I was approaching, the pattern on the surface was like neural tissue, network, I collided with that and fell back, when the sleeping woman reared up, I realized that she was me, waiting for me to return.

    Now, I know this was a dream, I am certain of this. I don't use psychedelics. I am not a true believer, of any sort. I am saying that my life is no different because of this dream, except that I feel there is more to life that we don't generally experience. I think that the suspension of the first three dimensions, with the exception of the consciousness we foster here, is a doorway to the fourth.
  22. Apr 25, 2004 #21

    Of course, use what is at your disposal. What is the value of gedankin experiments in dreamworld? Often confusing, they do reveal a extraordinary amount of information:)

    I like to think in a such a state, we could include a lot of information in a very short amount of time:) Some even associate such an event, to enlightenment:) So how would one get all that information to move through a point?

    Even in chaos, we are looking for some patterns, and in such a jumbled mess, what equation lies at the heart of this escapade? One would have to accept certain assumptions I think, about the portal that we can access is also accessed through us?

    http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/WebX?126@0.V83TboQiVWi.13@.1dde3fdf [Broken]

    Also consider the significance of "distance as dimension," in this post.

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  23. Apr 25, 2004 #22
    I recently read an account by cartoonist Grant Morrison which seemed appropriate for this thread. While in the Far East, he had apparently been abducted, not by aliens, but by higher dimensional creatures. His initial "ride" was much as previosly described in this thread, being lifted from the familiar, moving through blob-like regions and seeing space, time and the universe all at once in its infinity. The beings caused him to know that we (humans) are all basically larvae being bred in the lower three dimensions, planted in time, so we can eventually become higher dimensional beings like them, outside of time.

    Grant claimed he wasn't "on" anything...
  24. Apr 26, 2004 #23
    Well here is a thought then. The dimensional world is all around us, and you are part of it now?

    If the substance of these dimensins are real, even in weak field measure, what considerations would this compare too, if we understood the spectrum of dimension is accessible?

    We are asking for a TOE, and if this is to include gravity, then gravity has to be included in all equations? Would it not be a entanglement issue?
  25. May 21, 2004 #24
    Why are we always telling we are in a 3D world. Why not say we are in a 4D-world?

    I can accept that an immobile (full fixed) world is 3D. It has a set of fixed positions.
    But we see that our 3D-world of positions is changing every micro-micro second. We see and measure decay and growth. That's what we call time.

    Thus by the fact of being dynamic our world is 4D.
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