The Price of Victory

1. Jul 26, 2005

Art

Recent estimates show the US has already spent a massive $314 billion on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with a further$450 billion expected to be spent over the next 10 years. This will surpass the total cost of $600 billion (adjusted for inflation) for the Vietnam war and the$430 billion cost for the Korean war.

In return there appears to be very few gains. Global terrorism is at an all time high and people feel less safe now than before the wars started, whilst new divides have opened up between former allies.

Just how much more can America afford to spend before it begins to seriously damage her economy and is 'the war against terror' winnable in any case? What happens if a new front opens in the likes of Syria or Iran or even Taiwan?

Will America's power begin to wane from the burden of debt she is accumulating as happened to the european powers after WW2? Or indeed to the USSR more recently?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/17/MNG5GDPEK31.DTL

Last edited: Jul 26, 2005
2. Jul 26, 2005

SOS2008

Did you have to remind me? Oh...you're thinking you can bring the neocons to their senses. Good luck. This was their slogan in 2004:

Four more wars! Four more wars!

3. Jul 26, 2005

The Smoking Man

Oh, THAT's what they were yelling!

I thought that was a room 'service' request for:

Four more whores! Four more whores!

4. Jul 26, 2005

Smurf

We're three whores short. Quick Bill! Get married again!

5. Jul 27, 2005

pattylou

It's amazing. I don't understand how anyone can support this. I don't understand.

6. Jul 27, 2005

SOS2008

If we hang in there it will be worth it because Iraq will be a democratic ally in the Middle East--that's what the dude at the water cooler said. Now what's going on in the NFL?

7. Jul 27, 2005

vanesch

Staff Emeritus
I think that *that* is the real goal of OBL and Co. That's probably why he waited for 9/11 until Bush was elected, just to make sure that the US would "engage"...

8. Jul 27, 2005

The Smoking Man

You banged it on the noggin there vanesch. That is in fact what he states in his address to the USA in 2004:

Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
9. Jul 27, 2005

SOS2008

10. Jul 28, 2005

loseyourname

Staff Emeritus
Desperate Cardinals fans are hoping the new quartet of Warner, Fitzgerald, Boldon, and Arrington will lead their team to the playoffs for the first time in ages. In the NFC West, you never know.

11. Jul 28, 2005

SOS2008

Very funny (you know I was joking, right?). My real answer to pattylou's question is:

Americans can tell you statistics of every sport, what happened on an episode of a T.V. program last night, what the celebrities are doing, etc. I'm not saying entertainment should be banned, only that it should be kept in proper perspective. Because at the same time, Americans can't find the time to watch the news, or make it a priority to take interest in what's going on in their country or the world (how boring!). Most people hear little comments from others at work, or a family member, or what have you, and that becomes their political position.

I've said this several times. Education needs to be important, and it needs to be more global in nature, and it needs to start young--having children bring in current events articles for example. And parents need to be more proud of academic achievement than sports achievements.

This is the problem.

12. Jul 28, 2005

Art

Have you noticed the neocons are strangely silent. For the first time they seem to have absolutely nothing they can pick on to argue with? Maybe the truth is finally sinking home with them too?

13. Jul 28, 2005

pattylou

Oh God. I hope so.

Even if it's for the wrong reasons - the almighty dollar - I hope you're right.

14. Jul 28, 2005

Art

lol Yes I think it's just hit them "WHA..... WE HAVE TO PAY FOR ALL THIS?????????? "

15. Jul 28, 2005

The Smoking Man

It's okay ... really ...

It's their own companies they are paying.

Construction. Oil exploration. Armed services support. Arms.

I think they are silent because the attacks on other countries for supporting Saddam just revealed their own subsidiaries on the lists too.

They are just staying silent and raking in the cash.

16. Jul 29, 2005

SOS2008

A lot of the neocons probably aren't even aware of these things. According to recent polls, there is a significant percent of Americans who still believe there is a connection between 9-11 and Saddam.

Then the one's that do know the facts are rationalizing that democracy will take time, but it will be worth it because it will spread throughout the world. They are being smug (not silent) thinking how all the anti-war people will be proven wrong. In the very unlikely chance that will happen, I say they have to apologize for being wrong about links to Al Qeada and WMD first.

17. Jul 29, 2005

vanesch

Staff Emeritus
Well, there IS a link, no ? Saddam got kicked out because the American administration didn't know how to handle 9-11, no ? :tongue:

(like there is a link between de menezes and the bombings of the London subway: he got killed because the police didn't know how to handle the bombings' aftermath)

18. Jul 31, 2005

marlon

May i ask you : so what ?

There is a link, there is no link... :zzz: ...it really does not matter. We are all glad that Saddam is gone. The American actions in Iraq are certainly justified and i am glad there is still a courageous nation left that has the guts to stand up against global terror. It ain't gonna come from the pussies here in western europe that cannot even manage their own European constitution :rofl:

Besides, for the future of terrorism, Europe will be the target because thanks to our overall left wing politics, there is quasi no defense against terror, no screening, no control. Why do you think it has been since 911 that there has been an attack on US soil, while they are really the biggest enemy of these inferior terrorists ? The reason is simple, because of strick security measurements. I think the US, as always, is handeling this situation far better then us, Europeans.

But in the end, this terror stuff is losing its influence on the world because we will live with it. Just look at the 'impact' of the latest bombings on the economy.

I say, we must evolve to a more US type of politics (also on social security issues) here in western Europe and please, loose these eastern Europe countries that we have accepted in the latest EU-expansion. I mean, what is up with that ?

regards
marlon

19. Jul 31, 2005

Anttech

Ends will never justify the means.... The deaths and total chaos that is now in Iraq is actually worse than when Saddam was there, and the situation in the ME is by far worse and more unstable now than before... Dont forget that US was very happy with Saddam for the longest time...

never realised that Iraq was terrorsing Europe?

show us the justification... WMD? there is arent any... There are worse dictators in the world than Saddam, why is bush administration not going after them? The War was not endorsed by the UN and in some people eyes it could be deemed as Illegal

Each country in Europe has different social security system, and politics... just because we have the EU doesnt negate that all countries have the same political systems (or influence)??

If Europe is to have the same political and economical footing as the like of China in the not so distance future, it needs a large population base, amongst other things... thats "whats up with that"

If we should loose the "eastern European" countries we should also loose Belgium, Belgium was always the poor cousin of France Netherlands and UK, after its creation... If King Leopald didnt rape the congo (whats up with that, and why is the state holding all factual information on this?) I couldnt see how Beglium would have survived as a separate entity.. The underground economy of Belgium, and corruption that is at the heart of politics here is as bad, as our Eastern European neighbors ... There are reason why they call Belgium the "Sicily of the North"

20. Jul 31, 2005

marlon

Wrong, saddam was a mass murderer. More (of his own people) died under his command during his gass attacks in the late 80ties then there are people dead during the entire Iraqi 'war'

Please, look at the facts and do not remain blinded from reality because it is popular to make certain statements. look at the facts.

No ? Are you really living in Brussels ? Can't you see certain evolutions coming ? Can't you learn from history ?

:rofl: Typical, i assure you, if Bush had done that, you would have asked the exact same question.

I never said that. I was only comparing the belgian system with that of the US. Our social security system is no longer realistic because of several reasons...i am sure i do not have to explain to you why.

What ? Based upon what facts are you saying this ? I really do not follow here

What is your point ? What you are saying is incorrect and nowadays, the Flemish part of Belgium is one of the richest regions in Europe ? Please, what are you saying here ?

Wrong again; nearly every nation in Europe has done the same: France, Italy, ...the UK...(not being a member of the EU, smart guys )

Since every nation has had colonies, your point is invalid because the netto effect on EU-economies,relative to each other ofcourse, would have been the same if colonization had not taken place.

Well, this is not the place to start speculating, stick to facts, please.

I have lived in Belgium for 25 years (and i am 25 now) and i have never heard that name. But then again, if this is true, it does not bother me. Following your line of reasoning we could call the entire world, the Sicily-globe or something. Please...

marlon