Proton Decay: Exploring Entropy's Effects

In summary: My point is that it would make sense for an entropy-rich universe to still have a lot of protons if decay is not happening. I'm wondering if that's what you're getting at?In summary, it would make sense for an entropy-rich universe to still have a lot of protons if decay is not happening.
  • #1
Gfellow
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Dear admins and moderators,

I am sure this subject has come up many times before, and could well be a stupid question. If so, could you direct me to the relevant thread(s)?

Setting aside its itinerant electron, (Hydrogen Atom,) the Proton is THE building block of the Universe.

"...Despite significant experimental effort, proton decay has never been observed..."
~Proton Decay, Wikipedia

How does this jibe with the Law of Entropy?
Can someone explain?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay
 
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  • #2
Gfellow said:
How does this jibe with the Law of Entropy?
What makes you think that it conflicts? I don’t see the connection.
 
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  • #3
I'm wondering, if everything winds down, what about the Protons? Do they decay?
 
  • #4
Gfellow said:
I'm wondering, if everything winds down
The second law of thermo says that the entropy of an isolated system never decreases.

Gfellow said:
what about the Protons? Do they decay?
No. There is nothing for them to decay into.
 
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  • #5
So in an entropic universe is still smack-full of as many protons as it started out with, they're merely rushing away from each other?
 
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  • #6
Gfellow said:
So in an entropic universe is still smack-full of as many protons as it started out with

As far as I'm aware of, yes

Gfellow said:
they're merely rushing away from each other?
Why do you think they would be doing that?
Are all the protons in your body doing that ?
 
  • #7
Gfellow said:
I'm wondering, if everything winds down, what about the Protons? Do they decay?
The problem here seems to be that you are mis-stating the second law of thermodynamics. It says entropy in a closed system never decreases, not that it always increases (which is what your "everything winds down" would seem to imply). We have no problem with things not changing.

In fact, if we insist that protons must decay just because "everything decays" then this doesn't solve your problem. If protons did decay into something, what would that something do? If it doesn't decay then observing a proton decaying simply pushes your problem back a step. If it does decay you can ask the same question about its decay products, rinse and repeat. Either you have to accept something that doesn't decay, a circular decay chain (which would very likely violate the second law) or an infinite decay chain (which doesn't seem very parsimonious).
 
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  • #8
Gfellow said:
I'm wondering, if everything winds down

That sounds like the root of your confusion. I'm not sure what you mean by winds down.

You may be mixing up the 2nd Law (as others already said), and the postulated ultimate heat death of the universe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe). They are not connected. And proton decay is not connected with either of them.
 
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  • #9
They are not connected. And proton decay is not connected with either of them.
Does this mean that when talking about the Heat Death of the Universe, we can ignore the non-decay of the proton?
 
  • #10
anorlunda said:
That sounds like the root of your confusion. I'm not sure what you mean by winds down.

You may be mixing up the 2nd Law (as others already said), and the postulated ultimate heat death of the universe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe). They are not connected. And proton decay is not connected with either of them.

Since radiation travels at the speed of light and Protons do not, and if Protons do not decay, would that infer that an expanding Heat Death Universe would consist of a core of relatively slow proton outflow while the radiation of the Universe has left the Protons behind?
 
  • #11
Ibix said:
In fact, if we insist that protons must decay just because "everything decays" then this doesn't solve your problem. If protons did decay into something, what would that something do?
If a Proton did decay, wouldn't it result in an emission of radiation, a release into the entropic system described in the Third Law of Thermodynamics, contributing to the Heat Death Universe, whereas a non-decaying Proton would not?
 
  • #12
I am not convinced that the non-decay of a proton is relevant here. What does not decay is an isolated proton. The heat death of the universe will have lots of opportunities to interact with things to allow decay.
 
  • #13
Gfellow said:
Summary: How does one reconcile the non-decaying Proton and the Law of Entropy?

Dear admins and moderators,

I am sure this subject has come up many times before, and could well be a stupid question. If so, could you direct me to the relevant thread(s)?

Setting aside its itinerant electron, (Hydrogen Atom,) the Proton is THE building block of the Universe.

"...Despite significant experimental effort, proton decay has never been observed..."
~Proton Decay, Wikipedia

How does this jibe with the Law of Entropy?
Can someone explain?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

Back, up, BACK UP a bit here... You have made a HUGE leap in logic.

You made the connection that (1) proton doesn't decay to (2) it must then violate 2nd law of Thermodynamics.

This connection has NOT been established, especially by you! You have made a statement that has no justification, and a logical and rational series of connection between the two is missing!

So before we argue on this, you must make your case, because otherwise, we are arguing about the color of a unicorn's tail, without first establishing that the unicorn even exists! An established paper in a standard peer-reviewed journal should be your starting point, NOT a wikipedia article, thankyouverymuch.

Zz.
 
  • #14
Gfellow said:
would that infer that an expanding Heat Death Universe would consist of a core of relatively slow proton outflow while the radiation of the Universe has left the Protons behind?
In Big Bang cosmology, the universe does not expand from a center. It expands everywhere. There is no core.
 
  • #15
Why are you worried about proton decay but not electron decay, which also has never been observed? Or photon decay, which is impossible for very fundamental reasons?

Particles decay if there is a possible decay mode, they do not decay if there is not. As simple as that. If protons cannot decay they will just stay around forever. The expansion of the universe will reduce their density more and more, just as it reduces the density of radiation.

Heat death just means the universe reaches the maximum entropy, it doesn't tell you how this state of maximum entropy looks like.
 
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  • #16
davenn said:
As far as I'm aware of, yes
Why do you think they would be doing that?
Are all the protons in your body doing that ?

My body contains Electrons as well as Protons. If my body consisted merely of Protons, since they are of the same polarity, wouldn't they repel one another?
The electron can decay into a photon and neutrino, the dispersion contributing to the Heat Death of the Universe, but if the Proton doesn't decay, do they just stick around?
 
  • #17
Gfellow said:
The electron can decay into a photon and neutrino
No it can’t. Where did you get that idea? That wouldn’t conserve charge.

Gfellow said:
if the Proton doesn't decay, do they just stick around?
Again, an isolated proton doesn’t decay (so it would stick around), but protons in the universe are not always isolated.
 
  • #18
mfb said:
Why are you worried about proton decay but not electron decay, which also has never been observed? Or photon decay, which is impossible for very fundamental reasons?

Can't the electron decay into a photon and neutrino?

Particles decay if there is a possible decay mode, they do not decay if there is not. As simple as that. If protons cannot decay they will just stay around forever. The expansion of the universe will reduce their density more and more, just as it reduces the density of radiation.

Over time, with the electrons having decayed into photons and neutrinos, dissipating at the speed of light and contributing to the Heat Death of the Universe, leaving only the slower moving Protons in existence, would the like polarity Protons dispel one another?

Heat death just means the universe reaches the maximum entropy, it doesn't tell you how this state of maximum entropy looks like.

Is maximum entropy an absolute?
 
  • #19
jbriggs444 said:
In Big Bang cosmology, the universe does not expand from a center. It expands everywhere. There is no core.
I think I understand that; would that impact my question concerning Protons in a Heat Death Universe? If so, in what way?
 
  • #20
Gfellow said:
Can't the electron decay into a photon and neutrino?
No. It doesn’t conserve charge.

Again, where did you get this idea. Please cite your reference
 
  • #21
ZapperZ said:
Back, up, BACK UP a bit here... You have made a HUGE leap in logic.

You made the connection that (1) proton doesn't decay to (2) it must then violate 2nd law of Thermodynamics.
I was thinking more along the line of the Third Law of thermodynamics

This connection has NOT been established, especially by you!

I feel small and humbled.

You have made a statement that has no justification, and a logical and rational series of connection between the two is missing!

So before we argue on this

I was not arguing, just asking a question from a rich forum of knowledge.

you must make your case, because otherwise, we are arguing about the color of a unicorn's tail, without first establishing that the unicorn even exists! An established paper in a standard peer-reviewed journal should be your starting point, NOT a wikipedia article, thankyouverymuch.

I used the Wikipedia quote for brevity. There is a long history of Proton Decay experiments out there, as can be evidenced by a Google Scholar search:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=1,10&as_vis=1&q="Proton+decay"++experiment&scisbd=1
Sorry if I have in some way offended you
 
  • #22
Thank you for your time, everyone. I'm very grateful for your responses. I shall not pursue this query here any further.
 

1. What is proton decay?

Proton decay is a hypothetical process in which a proton, one of the fundamental particles that make up the nucleus of an atom, decays into lighter particles. This process has not been observed in experiments, but it is predicted by some theories in physics.

2. How does proton decay relate to entropy?

Proton decay is thought to be a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy, or disorder, in a closed system always increases over time. The decay of a proton into lighter particles would result in an increase in entropy, as there would be more particles and therefore more possible arrangements of those particles.

3. What evidence do we have for proton decay?

Currently, there is no direct evidence for proton decay. However, some theories that predict proton decay also make predictions for other phenomena, such as the decay of other particles or the existence of certain types of radiation. These predictions can be tested through experiments, which could indirectly provide evidence for proton decay.

4. Why is studying proton decay important?

Studying proton decay could help us better understand the fundamental laws of physics, particularly the relationship between entropy and the behavior of particles. It could also provide insights into the structure and evolution of the universe, as well as potential applications in fields such as energy production and particle physics.

5. Is proton decay possible?

While there is currently no direct evidence for proton decay, many theories in physics predict its possibility. However, the predicted rate of proton decay is extremely slow, with some estimates suggesting it could take more than 10^34 years for a single proton to decay. This makes it very difficult to observe and study, but it does not rule out the possibility of its existence.

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