The reason why the East fell behind the West

  • Thread starter Kimchijjigae
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I agree with Hurkyl, your confusing the two. I'm not saying capitalism doesn't have its benefits for scientific research, but to say that it is necessary is wrong. What do you define as Science? What about the origins of Science? The things that required inclined planes, rolling balls, and a mind? Why do you need capitalism there? You may need industry and interest from people in high political places, but not capitalism. What about the Soviet Union? are we discrediting the soviet scientific endeavor because of its lack of capitalism? The USSR has many discoveries and kept up with us. What about China? What about other non free-market economies like state-controlled Nazi Germany? There science was pretty advanced. It may have been more fractionalized and difficult, but if you could convince the political leaders that your research was beneficial to the state, then you were granted the ability to do research.
 
He was talking of capitalism to define the complex artifacts of technology. He thinks that without abundance of cheap capital from capitalism, science and technology would had gone a lot much slower. When the state is the main owner of a nation, or an empire, he can limit he fields of inquire to those most cherish by the dominant class. In the example of the Soviet Union, they had in the aim his antagonist power, the USA, and they wanted to prevail and surpass them. Then any new discovery, any new technical advance, not foresighted by the leaders had to be copied or rediscovered. Specially in the field of technical warfare and killing machines.
The main differences between a system with strong control of a nation is that they force the scientists, or the philosophers, to justify their role in society.
While, in general, the capitalist nations function with more diverse groups who have more freedom to act on their own. A modern capitalist state functions as a multiverse of ideologies and in general, such states are weak. Do not impose lines of thought on people.
I said "modern capitalist" state, because capitalism is more or less very ancient. When the interest of earning profits with trade is tenet of society, ideology occupies a secondary or minor role. While the states that play a strong role tend to control with the help of an ideology. An ideology can be either religious, or a political not religious doctrine. The stronger is such a state the more stringent is the society, and some trades, some activities, and some line of thinking can get prohibited.
So, it is a relative situation with a state more or less stringent on what people can do or what cannot do.
Then, freedom can also serve also to some good purposes, besides rebelling and tumbling down a government. That is so difficult and delicate to pass from a political system with little a degree of freedom, to another with more or less abundant freedom.
Then, philosophers of different stripes can be against this or that class of freedom.
It depends on the philosopher in question.
John Galaor
.
 
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Strange that they should have gunpowder rockets and cannon before the West and not use it to conquer the West.
 
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To think that Japan is in the process to catch up is foolish.
Why? Japan is very successful in researching genetics/DNA, computers/technology, neuroscience, babies' psychological process(es), chimpanzees...
And you see in media how they use their creativity to entertain public...
Japan is part of the East. rofl
So what?
Kimchijjigae said:
Moreover, this disemphasis of the individual led to material frugality which hindered the development of capitalism, and without capitalism there cannot be modern science.
Science is about to understand how the nature (the natural world) works. Even if I live 10 BC, I still can do science. Today, technology fundamentally helps developing modern science.
Some of Einstein's influental works were put under precise tests after his death, because during Einstein's time the technology wasn't as advanced as 1960s' technology.
 
To Radrook
<Strange that they should have gunpowder rockets and cannon before the West and not use it to conquer the West. >

They had enough problems at home, I suppose. Not counting that they had not vocation of seafarers. Then, to the North they had the deserts of Mongolia, on the west the desert of Taklamakan was enough to deter any fancy to conquer desert foreign lands. It was common sense not to nurse any fancy of conquering foreign lands. They were utterly poor. It will be a senseless adventure.
John Galaor
.
 
to Atran:
<<Science is about to understand how the nature (the natural world) works. Even if I live 10 BC, I still can do science. Today, technology fundamentally helps developing modern science.
Some of Einstein's influental works were put under precise tests after his death, because during Einstein's time the technology wasn't as advanced as 1960s' technology. >>

Technology cannot advance by jumping. It is like a ladder you go slowly climbing into the future. Then, the main trouble is "past knowledge". The abundant and wrong wisdom of the past is like a barrier stopping progress. The most we worship the wisdom of ancient times, the most troubles we have to go forward.
John Galaor
.
 

Kimchijjigae

Why? Japan is very successful in researching genetics/DNA, computers/technology, neuroscience, babies' psychological process(es), chimpanzees...
And you see in media how they use their creativity to entertain public...

So what?

Science is about to understand how the nature (the natural world) works. Even if I live 10 BC, I still can do science. Today, technology fundamentally helps developing modern science.
Some of Einstein's influental works were put under precise tests after his death, because during Einstein's time the technology wasn't as advanced as 1960s' technology.
I think you are confused.
 

Kimchijjigae

I agree with Hurkyl, your confusing the two. I'm not saying capitalism doesn't have its benefits for scientific research, but to say that it is necessary is wrong. What do you define as Science? What about the origins of Science? The things that required inclined planes, rolling balls, and a mind? Why do you need capitalism there? You may need industry and interest from people in high political places, but not capitalism. What about the Soviet Union? are we discrediting the soviet scientific endeavor because of its lack of capitalism? The USSR has many discoveries and kept up with us. What about China? What about other non free-market economies like state-controlled Nazi Germany? There science was pretty advanced. It may have been more fractionalized and difficult, but if you could convince the political leaders that your research was beneficial to the state, then you were granted the ability to do research.
You did not understand what I said. Don't generalize a statement I made. I gave a particular example that did require capitalism. Now, capitalism has many different stages, and a centrally planned economy won't be able to raise as much capital as an advanced capitalist country. Without capitalism, a country will reach a point where further scientific innovation will be impossible or advancement will be very stagnant.
 

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