The reason why the East fell behind the West

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In summary, the main reason why East Asia did not modernize before Europe is because of their holistic perspective, which prioritized the whole over the individual and hindered continuous scientific and technological advancement. This also led to a disemphasis on the individual and material frugality, hindering the development of capitalism and modern science. Additionally, the political elites were content with the social stability in place and did not want to raise the living standard of the people, leading to a reluctance to trade with the West. However, it should be noted that capitalism is an economic system and does not necessarily align with the social order in a country. East Asia's slower modernization was also influenced by their hierarchical society and lack of political and civil freedoms. Furthermore,
  • #1
Kimchijjigae
The main reason why East Asia did not modernize before Europe is this. East Asians are holistic, they see the whole before the individual elements constituting it and we believed that the whole was more important than the individual. This led to the following belief that continuous scientific and technological advancement was superficial, and science should be used to serve the whole, thus the society and the Cosmos—balance with the nature and human society, etc. Moreover, this disemphasis of the individual led to material frugality which hindered the development of capitalism, and without capitalism there cannot be modern science.

 
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  • #2
Kimchijjigae said:
The main reason why East Asia did not modernize before Europe is this. East Asians are holistic, they see the whole before the individual elements constituting it and we believed that the whole was more important than the individual. This led to the following belief that continuous scientific and technological advancement was superficial, and science should be used to serve the whole, thus the society and the Cosmos—balance with the nature and human society, etc. Moreover, this disemphasis of the individual led to material frugality which hindered the development of capitalism, and without capitalism there cannot be modern science.

The video isn't in English, nor does it have subtitles.

Please explain what the video is saying (the overall message is fine, no need to do a complete translation) and then present your discussion.

It looks interesting, but if we all start guessing, we cannot have a fruitful discussion.
 
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  • #3
Weather or not collectivism is a strength or a detriment we are all heading to the same place. When populations grow the will of the individual becomes less significant. The frontier is long gone.
 
  • #4
The reason why East Asia fell behind Europe is because they did not set up naval trade and were conquered by the Western nations.
 
  • #5
The most fundamental reason, I believe, is holism, as opposed to atomism—if I am not mistaken. Holism is what mainly caused the East to be reluctant to trade with the West, and which led the West to use gunboats to do away with protectionism in the East. The other reason is because the political elites did not want to raise the living standard of the people as they were content with the social stability in place, and it didn't serve any other immediate purpose—perhaps they were also fearful that such a move might give more political power to merchants.
 
  • #7
Kimchijjigae said:
The other reason is because the political elites did not want to raise the living standard of the people as they were content with the social stability in place, and it didn't serve any other immediate purpose—perhaps they were also fearful that such a move might give more political power to merchants.

That so reminds me of a quote from brave new world:

“We could synthesize every morsel of food, if we wanted to. But we don’t. We prefer to keep a third of the population on the land. For their own sakes–because it takes longer to get food out of the land than out of a factory. Besides, we have our stability to think of. We don’t want to change. Every change is a menace to stability. That’s another reason why we’re so chary of applying new inventions. Every discovery in pure science is potentially subversive; even science must sometimes be treated as a possible enemy. Yes, even science.”
http://johncreighton.amplify.com/2010/07/18/the-role-of-shortage-brave-new-world/ [Broken]
 
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  • #8
Korea was a highly hierarchic society. The rich exploited the poor, and the rich would not accept that the poor are given more rights since it would diminish their own power. That's the way it was. It was very uncapitalistic.

http://www.dramacrazy.net/korean-drama/dong-yi-episode-35/86831 [Broken]
 
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  • #9
Capitalism is an economic system. It does not necessarily identify with the social order in a country. A country can have capitalistic economic system, but still posses a lack of civil and political freedoms.

During the late XVIII and XIX centuries, European countries underwent Democratic Revolutions and overthrew the Monarchies. But, Democracy is not the same as Capitalism.
 
  • #10
Dickfore said:
Capitalism is an economic system. It does not necessarily identify with the social order in a country. A country can have capitalistic economic system, but still posses a lack of civil and political freedoms.

During the late XVIII and XIX centuries, European countries underwent Democratic Revolutions and overthrew the Monarchies. But, Democracy is not the same as Capitalism.

There is no free market, if some people are excluded from it.
 
  • #11
Kimchijjigae said:
There is no free market, if some people are excluded from it.

In wikipedia it says capitalism is the private ownership of wealth. It doesn't say it has to be inclusive to everyone in the state.
 
  • #12
I put a comma in that sentence for some odd reason of which I am not completely aware. Anyway, do you really consider Wikipedia for the Bible of all truths? Would you even consider substituting your brain for Wikipedia? Free market is basically pure offer and demand without distortions. Slaves don't earn any wage. Do you think the free market would allocate a significant portion of its labor force into very unproductive areas of the economy, and prevent them from participating and free economic actors? Of course, there is no perfect free market, but what was in place in East Asia was far more different.
 
  • #13
I thought the reason behind it was the West became basically materialistic (in the philosophical sense), and therefore the idea that the world followed mechanistic rules lent itself to scientific inquiry.

The East is still into boogie woogie mystical worldviews.

How can you have science when you believe the world is controlled by capricious gods, demons, nature spirits and the like?
 
  • #14
I don't think the East is still in the quicksand of irrationality. I will take your comment as a grain of salt. By the way, I am just giving my personal view on the matter.
 
  • #15
Me, I blame it on the tea-drinking. Tea-drinking lead to the East-Asians being perfectly satisfied with using porcelain, which lead to them never developed glassworking technology.

No glassworking, no eyeglasses, no optics, no microscopes, no telescopes, no test-tubes, etc.

Seriously though, saying that it's because they didn't develop 'capitalism' is exchanging cause and effect. The Industrial Revolution occurred because of scientific/technological progress, not vice-versa. When the Enlightenment occurred, societies were still almost entirely agricultural and 'pre-capitalist'.
 
  • #16
At any rate, it certainly is not due to some superior creativity as some people claim. The Chinese are diverse and not some homogeneous people as these people probably believe.

china-farmers_1362770c.jpg


9r7oqv.jpg
 
  • #17
Perhaps I am mistaken, but free market existed long before the term was coined.
 
  • #18
If I were to put everything in one word, I would say this: holism, which is perhaps better since instead of giving some examples of its implications, I'd be more holistic or general and wouldn't have to find all of them.

In ancient times, an Eastern scientist before presenting his findings would think about all the social consequences, political implications, etc. before deciding to do it or not; whereas a Western scientist would just present his findings.
 
  • #19
What do you mean by Ancient times and what findings would you give as an example?
 
  • #21
I will not watch any movies. If you can't answer a simple question, it's fine.
 
  • #22
It's obvious what I mean. Anyway, there are many things that suggest that what I am saying is completely true. For instance, look at the great Eastern thinkers: they were all poets, philosophers, politicians, astronomers, mathematicians, engineers, geologists, etc. all at once, they excelled in many fields and not just one--you may think this is extraordinary, but it is true.

Look at the alphabetic systems of the East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

Look at Eastern philosophical systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism
 
  • #23
Philosophy is not science, though and if you thnk a script is a major intellectual achievement, you need to get over it, cause there were a lot more advanced things invented or discovered after that. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_ratiocinator" [Broken]

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_steam_engine" [Broken]
 
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  • #24
Dickfore said:
Philosophy is not science, though and if you thnk a script is a major intellectual achievement, you need to get over it, cause there were a lot more advanced things invented or discovered after that. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_ratiocinator" [Broken]

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_steam_engine" [Broken]

I never said that philosophy is science, nor did I say that inventing a script was a major intellectual achievement. I think you didn't understand a word I said.
 
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  • #25
I didn't see any words you said. I just saw some links you posted in reply to direct queries.
 
  • #26
Kimchijjigae said:
I don't think the East is still in the quicksand of irrationality.

Still is the key here. That's part of the reason why they're in the process of catching up now.

Japan is about the most technologically advanced culture you'll find, and they're the most secular country on Earth. Coincidence? perhaps.
 
  • #27
SkepticJ said:
Still is the key here. That's part of the reason why they're in the process of catching up now.

Japan is about the most technologically advanced culture you'll find, and they're the most secular country on Earth. Coincidence? perhaps.

To think that Japan is in the process to catch up is foolish.
 
  • #28
Did you even read what I typed? I thought it was pretty obvious that I said that Japan is one of the most--if not the most--technologically advanced nations on Earth.

Japan was the exception in Asia until the last few decades, when China finally decided to claw its way out of the Neolithic.
 
  • #29
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12340"
At the outset, the heavily Confucian nature of the teaching role needs to be stressed, as also the difference between this way of teaching and the Socratic method [...] Westerners who have merely to master the alphabet [and not thousands of Chinese characters] need to make a serious mental leap to understand the dimensions of this learning process and also to see how it establishes a Confucian learning paradigm that is right at the centre of the cognitive process of any Japanese who has been through the school system.

[...] it should come as no surprise that there are no original or famous Japanese philosophers. The way of teaching is too Confucian and the group cohesion is too pervasive to allow any nails to stick up.

In certain fields the efficiency and efficacy of this approach is not in question. [..] The Japanese are unrivalled at building complex structures and making machinery and automobiles, where the ‘kata-factor' and group cohesion is paramount. The approach seems to work far less well in fields where individual creativity is necessary.

Is it that scholars of the West came to glorify ancient Greek individuals, around the time of the Renaissance, whereas the culture (in part even attributable to the language) was less amenable in the East?

Was it geography (as espoused by "Guns, Germs and Steel")? The simple fact that especially England had vast power already sitting there in the form of coal?

Was it the way capitalism developed in the Mediteranian?

At any rate, it's clear the East (and the middle east especially with their translation movement) was technologically ahead for a long time, but eventually the West seemed to deploy those technologies more widely, and develop further from them. But it's difficult to identify causes in history..
 
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  • #30
SkepticJ said:
Did you even read what I typed? I thought it was pretty obvious that I said that Japan is one of the most--if not the most--technologically advanced nations on Earth.

Japan was the exception in Asia until the last few decades, when China finally decided to claw its way out of the Neolithic.

Japan is part of the East. rofl
 
  • #31
cesiumfrog said:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12340"


Is it that scholars of the West came to glorify ancient Greek individuals, around the time of the Renaissance, whereas the culture (in part even attributable to the language) was less amenable in the East?

Was it geography (as espoused by "Guns, Germs and Steel")? The simple fact that especially England had vast power already sitting there in the form of coal?

Was it the way capitalism developed in the Mediteranian?

At any rate, it's clear the East (and the middle east especially with their translation movement) was technologically ahead for a long time, but eventually the West seemed to deploy those technologies more widely, and develop further from them. But it's difficult to identify causes in history..

There are many factors and yes you can identify them, but not perhaps all of them. At any rate, you can't determine creativity based on national achievements. Thinking otherwise is quite unscientific.
 
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  • #32
Kimchijjigae said:
Japan is part of the East. rofl


One of the drawbacks to the internet is one can't immediately discern with whom one is conversing. Case in point, I've just discovered that you're either really, really stupid, or just feinting to be so to get a rise out of someone.

Either way, I can see that this is a waste of time. I'll leave you to your armpit-solo.
 
  • #33
Well, clearly, you can't even put your thoughts into words properly so that people may understand you. That means you are the bigger idiot. Don't make people guess what you are trying to say, Sherlock Holmes.
 
  • #34
Kimchijjigae said:
The main reason why East Asia did not modernize before Europe is this. East Asians are holistic, they see the whole before the individual elements constituting it and we believed that the whole was more important than the individual. This led to the following belief that continuous scientific and technological advancement was superficial, and science should be used to serve the whole, thus the society and the Cosmos—balance with the nature and human society, etc. Moreover, this disemphasis of the individual led to material frugality which hindered the development of capitalism, and without capitalism there cannot be modern science.


<The main reason why East Asia did not modernize before Europe is this. East Asians are holistic, they see the whole before the individual elements constituting it and we believed that the whole was more important than the individual. >

I have another explanation for this stop of development, that gave central Europe to catch the Chinese culture. All civilizations keep growing till they get stack with some scarcity of resources. In this way, Chinese civilization stopped and froze when the scarcity of charcoal, scarcity of firewood, made the production of more steel and iron a limiting factor. In the case of China, other factors had some influence like the existence of a powerful empire. A powerful empire is basically conservative and has very little interest in changing the social status quo. In fact the great empires tend to get stiff with a fundamentalist doctrine. Only an exterior power can change that. If Europe would have been under the grip of a powerful empire so many centuries as China, we would had not develop any capitalism at all, or had any industrial revolution. Then, Europe was divided among many warring nations. This tradition of making wars among them, made the kings look at the production of iron and steel with a favorable bias. Of course the aristocrats would like best to have a holistic doctrine that would guaranty their privileges. But in a world with so frequent wars, to develop the steel industry and others, would meant for the kings a sort of promise to win, or to prevail against the enemies.
That interpretation can explain while the superior cultures Southern European nations and Islamic countries got stunted, while the nations of Central Europe developed quite a lot. They have a lot more of woodlands than souther countries. Then, they had more capacity to produce charcoal, and then develop the steel industry.
There was a critical moment in England, when they realized the lack of firewood and had to start consuming coal. Then the industrial revolution was saved by existence of coal, that gave them the possibility of using coke to produce steel.
John Galaor
.
 
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  • #35
cesiumfrog said:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12340"


Is it that scholars of the West came to glorify ancient Greek individuals, around the time of the Renaissance, whereas the culture (in part even attributable to the language) was less amenable in the East?

Was it geography (as espoused by "Guns, Germs and Steel")? The simple fact that especially England had vast power already sitting there in the form of coal?

Was it the way capitalism developed in the Mediteranian?

At any rate, it's clear the East (and the middle east especially with their translation movement) was technologically ahead for a long time, but eventually the West seemed to deploy those technologies more widely, and develop further from them. But it's difficult to identify causes in history..
I will also add something. Following the idea of Jared Diamon, that was also mine many years ago, but I had not the opportunity of developing, the resources are a limitation to growth. This on a part. This explains while the great civilizations of west in the past, the Mesopotamian, the Egyptian, the Greek, the Roman, and a little later the Islamic and the southern countries of Europe got their development stunted by the scarcity of resources. Not only woods, but agriculture lands, and rains. The population has reached a plateau and then got stunted. The frequent wars were not enough to solve the problem of an excessive population, for the resources exhausted grow very slowly for human standards.

Then, my idea is the capacity to develop industry migrated farther to the North.
And then, the lack of a great empire to freeze and kill the unorthodox ideas permitted some individuals to develop rare concepts, and rare artifacts, like new ways of producing steel and the steam engine. Then being the official doctrine of power less suffocating than in the East and in Islamic countries, gave an opportunity to develop some new industries. In a more conservative system, nobody would had been allowed to invent a machine to weave. The philosopher would had condemned this invention as contrary to the families that were doing weaving by manual means. And is was really true that familiar weavers would lost their means of life. But this damned more or less automatic machines would produce more woven material and more cheap, for the general population. Then, the holistic interpretation on this case would have been wrong.
John Galaor
 
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<h2>1. What is the main reason for the East falling behind the West?</h2><p>The main reason for the East falling behind the West is due to the Industrial Revolution that took place in Europe and North America. This revolution brought about significant advancements in technology, transportation, and communication, which led to economic growth and prosperity in the West.</p><h2>2. Was there a specific event that caused the East to fall behind the West?</h2><p>While there were several factors that contributed to the East falling behind the West, one significant event was the Opium Wars in the mid-19th century. These wars weakened the Chinese empire and opened up their markets to Western powers, leading to unequal treaties and economic exploitation.</p><h2>3. Did cultural differences play a role in the East falling behind the West?</h2><p>Yes, cultural differences did play a role in the East falling behind the West. The emphasis on tradition and conformity in Eastern cultures hindered innovation and progress, while the individualistic and entrepreneurial values in Western cultures promoted growth and development.</p><h2>4. Were there any other factors besides the Industrial Revolution that contributed to the East falling behind the West?</h2><p>Yes, there were other factors that contributed to the East falling behind the West. These include colonialism, imperialism, and the exploitation of resources and labor in Eastern countries by Western powers. Additionally, the lack of access to education and resources in the East also hindered their development.</p><h2>5. Is the East still behind the West in terms of development?</h2><p>The East has made significant strides in catching up with the West in terms of development. With advancements in technology and globalization, many Eastern countries have experienced rapid economic growth and development. However, there are still disparities between the two regions, particularly in terms of income inequality and access to resources and opportunities.</p>

1. What is the main reason for the East falling behind the West?

The main reason for the East falling behind the West is due to the Industrial Revolution that took place in Europe and North America. This revolution brought about significant advancements in technology, transportation, and communication, which led to economic growth and prosperity in the West.

2. Was there a specific event that caused the East to fall behind the West?

While there were several factors that contributed to the East falling behind the West, one significant event was the Opium Wars in the mid-19th century. These wars weakened the Chinese empire and opened up their markets to Western powers, leading to unequal treaties and economic exploitation.

3. Did cultural differences play a role in the East falling behind the West?

Yes, cultural differences did play a role in the East falling behind the West. The emphasis on tradition and conformity in Eastern cultures hindered innovation and progress, while the individualistic and entrepreneurial values in Western cultures promoted growth and development.

4. Were there any other factors besides the Industrial Revolution that contributed to the East falling behind the West?

Yes, there were other factors that contributed to the East falling behind the West. These include colonialism, imperialism, and the exploitation of resources and labor in Eastern countries by Western powers. Additionally, the lack of access to education and resources in the East also hindered their development.

5. Is the East still behind the West in terms of development?

The East has made significant strides in catching up with the West in terms of development. With advancements in technology and globalization, many Eastern countries have experienced rapid economic growth and development. However, there are still disparities between the two regions, particularly in terms of income inequality and access to resources and opportunities.

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