The Road To Reality - Is It Easy or Hard to Understand?

[WORLD-HEN]

Hi, has anyone read "The Road To Reality" by Roger Penrose? It looks quite complicated if you browse through it but I started reading the book and in the preface Penrose says that in the first 17 chapter he develops and explains all the mathematics necessary for the rest of the book. Is this really true? Is it easy or hard? I need some feedback. I was literally drooling over this book at the book store, a fairly mathematical treatment of loop quantum gravity in the last chapter! and the author claims that all needed mathematics will be explained! its like a dream!. Well any way, all feedback is welcome, tell me if its impossibly hard to understand or fairly easy or whatever.

 

[Gecko]

i have it. i had to ship it from the uk to hawaii = P. its a truly amazing book. definately a must have. it is not meant for those that are weak at math though. he does explain what you need to know, but unless you have a pretty good math background, its really confusing. you could glance through it and give it a try. i love it.

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

i saw this at the book store. I was tempted to buy it, but I saw the math and decided that i'd better not. I still want it though. heh

 

[James R]

I have only browsed through it, but it looks like Penrose takes a fair amount of math for granted in the book. I think it would be heavy going for somebody with no background in math.

My advice: if this is your first physics/math book, it is probably not a good place to start. You'll most likely get lost very quickly.

 

[Telos]

The book gives this website for finding the solutions to the exercises:

http://www.roadsolutions.ox.ac.uk/

But, when you click on "solutions" there's just a note from Penrose saying he hasn't got around to posting them and they might be there in "November." What.. November 2012?

Does anyone know if there's another place that has the solutions?

 

[alex caps]

I picked this up a week ago and I must say.. wow, GREAT book. I am only on page 90 right now, but it does a great job at starting from the beginning and covering most everything. Rather than just seing the "popular" belief, Penrose tries to give the reader many different opinions and ideas and he states each very nicely. This book is not one to read straight though like a novel, but if you have time and like to learn a thing or two, definitely check it out.

 

[James R]

I couldn't help myself. I went out and bought the book, too, and am reading through it. So far, I'm only up to around Chapter 9.

Penrose takes quite a bit for granted, and skips over a lot of things in his explanations. For example, he lost me with his discussion of Riemann surfaces, and this is something I'm supposed to know something about.

The book is good for getting a taste of what's out there in terms of maths and physics, but in no way is it a textbook. You couldn't use it as the basis for teaching a beginner or intermediate course in maths or physics - at least not without bringing in a lot of supplementary material.

It's always interesting to read a book which sets out the ideas of a deep thinker who has been working on stuff for years. This is a good book, but probably doesn't quite achieve its stated aim of being very accessible to the general public.

For confirmation, just look at some of the "exercises", mentioned above. It would be very difficult for somebody who only had Penrose's book to complete many of the exercises (particularly the ones he classifies as intermediate or hard).

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

it's definitely not for someone who has not had much mathematics. I was ok through chapter 7. I did not have much a clue on 8 and 9. I'm currently learning some calculus. I'm on calc II next chapter. I guess I have something to push me. I would like to understand as much as I can of this book. Penrose loves complex numbers. I never knew they were so cool.

 

[Telos]

Well, you're not supposed to learn anything about physics until after Ch. 16, right? Aren't the first 16 chapters just mathematical context?

And if anyone ever finds a web page for the solutions, please post it here. The site I mentioned above makes it look like Penrose just forgot.

 

[rick1138]

I have it. It is a great book, but fairly advanced. Do not be intimidated if you don't understand everything in the book - it is basically an informal discussion of graduate level math. As far as complex numbers go, the book he mentions, Visual Complex Analysis, written by one of his students, is absolutely fantastic - THE book on complex analysis.

 

[bombadillo]

I have the book and I like it, but I wouldn't recommend it to a layperson. Perhaps the ideal readership would be math graduates who would like to understand some physics. Such graduates should have taken courses in com-plex analysis (and a bit of Riemann surface theory would not go amiss), differential geometry, general topology (a bit of algebraic topology would also be helpful), group theory, some representation theory, classical mechanics and classical electrodynamics. The Road to Reality is not a text, nor could it be within the scope of a mere 800 pages. It gives a heuristic overview that will only be comprehensible to those who already know the mathematics.

I see the book has been favorably reviewed by the press, and I can't help wondering whether the journalists assigned to write the reviews understood the book at all.

The book by Needham, titled, Visual Complex Analysis, is interesting, and on my shelves, but not one I'd recommend for a standard first course in the subject. Penrose wrote a favorable review for it perhaps because Needham refers to him obseqiously every few pages.

In summary, if all you've taken are a couple of calculus courses, you might like to have the book for the purpose of inspiration, but don't think you'll understand what a connection is, or what Cartan's exterior calculus is.

 

[rick1138]

Penrose wrote a favorable review for it perhaps because Needham refers to him obseqiously every few pages.

Needham quotes Penrose obseqiously in his book - he was one of his students.

I see the book has been favorably reviewed by the press, and I can't help wondering whether the journalists assigned to write the reviews understood the book at all.

They didn't. I read the review in the New York Times, it was hilarious. There was one quote, I don't remember it exactly, but it was something like, "I must admit that I stuggled with the concept of a '(1,3) valent tensor'", or i.e. the reviewer didn't understand a word of what he read.

 

[inquire4more]

I seem to agree with all the posts so far. I am currently reading my girlfriend's copy of this book and am thoroughly enjoying it, but I am not moving through it at other than a snail's pace (in my defence, I always take my sweet time getting throught the intro/review chapters, getting bored, but still plod through them in the event there is something I was not aware of). I have a great respect for Prof. Penrose. I just think he may be a bit (read, way the hell) too optimistic about either the knowledge level, intelligence, patience, or interest of the general public. His treatments of the mathematics are obviously and understandably not as in depth as a textbook, but imho, still a bit much for joe armchair-physicist out there. But, as I said, I am enjoying this book.

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

I'm on chapter 26 now. I love Quantum Mechanics. Can't wait to read bout the other theories too. I'll probably never learn the math, especially not on my own, but at least I'll reconize terms now when browing the physics boards or when reading other physics books. Sometimes I had to push myself to read on in some of the math sections because I knew greater things were coming up. I can see how some of the math might be interesting though. I was glad one I got to the physics.

 

[neurocomp2003]

So the book is worth than i take it...i keep glancing at it here and there when i visit chapters...apparently its been taken off shelf and a new one is coming out 2005-10 or 2005-11

 

[Peter.E]

People keep mentioning how hard the maths is in the book, but what background of maths do they have?

Could people tell me how good they are at maths so I can compare with me, see if I would be able to understand it. I obviously won't stand a chance if you are all undergraduates :)

 

[PhilosophyofPhysics]

My background is only calculus I in college, a bit of Calc II from high school and review lately, and I just learned a bit about vectors. Vectors are cool!

 

[James R]

I am at PhD level in physics. There is maths in the book that is vaguely familiar to me, but not explained in enough detail for me to fully understand it without looking at other references.

 

[neurocomp2003]

like cliffoard algebra?

 

[ron damon]

I see there is a new edition of the book coming out on October 25, 2005. Does anyone know if it'll include anything new? Like exercises with answers?

I really want to buy it, but don't want to end up double dipping when/if an improved version is released.

Also, for the people who have read it, how will an ignorant fool like myself only acquainted with math up to a little of differential equations and vector calculus fare with this mammoth?

 

[neurocomp2003]

no its softcover vs hardcover

softcover is Oct2005-and half the price

 

[selfAdjoint]

I see there is a new edition of the book coming out on October 25, 2005. Does anyone know if it'll include anything new? Like exercises with answers?

I really want to buy it, but don't want to end up double dipping when/if an improved version is released.

Also, for the people who have read it, how will an ignorant fool like myself only acquainted with math up to a little of differential equations and vector calculus fare with this mammoth?

If you were fairly cool with your DE and vector courses, you should be all right at least half way through the book, and you will learn some interesting stuff. The last half of the book is mostly physics, and it's no harder than any other serious intro to quantum, relativity and so forth. You should try it if it interests you.

 

[SpaceTiger]

I am at PhD level in physics. There is maths in the book that is vaguely familiar to me, but not explained in enough detail for me to fully understand it without looking at other references.

This is my problem with the book. It's good for getting a new perspective on stuff I already know, but the information on the new stuff isn't sufficiently detailed for me to get a full grasp of it without resorting to other texts. It is certainly interesting, though, so perhaps I will treat it as one of those books that I make my way through gradually as I learn the new material from other sources.

 

[Telos]

Also, for the people who have read it, how will an ignorant fool like myself only acquainted with math up to a little of differential equations and vector calculus fare with this mammoth?

Chapter 7 is on complex-number calculus, which I was not at all familiar with, so I'll use that as an example. After reading the chapter, I know in order for there to be a concept of "slope" in complex calculus a function must satisfy what's known as the Cauchy-Riemann equations. This allows for a different kind of integration called countour integration, which looks like this $$\oint$$, and can be used to make a "beautiful" formula for nth derivatives. But I do not know why this is beautiful so I have to take his word for it. He expands on this concept by explaining the difference between homology and homotopy and thus, introducing topology. I have always known that contour lines are those lines showing equal elevation on geopgraphical topology maps, but Penrose never confirms or denies that this is the same idea. Somewhere during this he talks about convergent power series and finishes by mentioning the Dirichlet series, the Riemann Zeta function, and the Riemann Hypothesis, things which I have seen before but still cannot mentally grasp. I have read the chapter twice and although I know that all of these things are related, I do not know exactly how.

(Somewhere in all of this I am screaming to know how this relates to physics and my understanding of reality, yet there are still 8 more chapters until physics is mentioned...)

It relies on all the previous chapters, so perhaps I did not understand something very well that he had written before, or perhaps I was just not very focused.

It has been a few months, and so far this book has only served to motivate me into reading actual textbooks. In that way perhaps it is good - it sort of tests your will power to understand. If you are not interested in learning more, you say, "okay that's fine" and put it down. If you're interested in learning more, you say, "no, that's not fine... Penrose you glib" and find a more comprehensive source, but this time with some ideas and relationships you didn't know before, giving you an idea of what you might learn.

However, Penrose's insistence on calling various concepts like complex numbers "magic" is extremely irritating, like he's speaking to a kindergartener. "The magical fact thus arises, that any complex function that is complex-smooth is necessarily analytic!"

Analytic functions are so dreamy! :!)

 

[mathwonk]

i recommend reading riemann. this stuff about the riemann cauchy equations is discussed there in the fiurst few pages of his thesis, and then he continues witha complete foundation for compelx calculus, and much more.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

He expands on this concept by explaining the difference between homology and homotopy and thus, introducing topology. I have always known that contour lines are those lines showing equal elevation on geopgraphical topology maps, but Penrose never confirms or denies that this is the same idea.

It's not. I think the explanation in the book is much better than what I can do, but I will try anyway. Unfortunately, I don't have the book in front of me now. The issue has nothing to do with complex analysis, but rather with topology (not topography either).

If you start with two distinct points on a piece of paper and draw a circle in such a way that the two points form the endpoints of a diameter of the circle. Consider that there are two paths from one point to the other, each path being half of the circle. You can imagine continuously deforming one of those semicircular paths until it coincides with the other. However, if there were a hole in the paper at the center of the circle, you could not make the deformation continuous because you can't drag the path across the hole (think of a line perpendicular to the paper through the hole, then the path would snag on the line as you tried to deform it).

In this description, I used two semicircles, however the same reasoning would apply if you compared any two paths between any two points. If you can continously deform one path into the other, then the two paths are homotopic. In nonprecise terms, if there are no holes in the region between the two paths, then they are homotopic.

Homologic is like homotopic except that if your path doubles back on itself (as in the picture in the book), then you can cancel the doubling part even though doing so is not a continuous operation. Because you are allowed this extra operation, it turns out that if two lines are homotopic, they are certainly homologic, but not vice versa.

 

[rick1138]

If you get a copy of Visual Complex Analysis, you will find that it discusses many of the topological issues you are asking about. It was written by a student of Penrose. A good very basic introduction to algebraic topology is A Combinatorial Introduction to Topology.

 

[Telos]

Ah, thank you! For the suggestions and the help.

jimmysnyder, your explanation was very clear and more straightforward than Penrose's, IMO. He seems to dance around it with pretty language while feeling a mathematician's obligation to tangle one's self in rigor.

I just thought of this... perhaps it might be useful for readers to write their own glossaries while reading this book (Penrose does not provide you with one). I have been keeping notes like I would with a math book, thinking I would need to spend more time studying formulae and doing the practice problems. But the solutions to the problems have not been available and will not be for some time, so it might be better to spend more time on the concepts. A small stack of notecards could be an indispensable tool.

Oh, and readers could understandably be intimidated by the title into thinking that this book would be better if it was kept clean of notes in the margin or underlined sentences. If you purchased the book, you should not hesitate to mark it up like a coloring book.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

jimmysnyder, your explanation was very clear and more straightforward than Penrose's, IMO.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad if my small effort helped you. I intended it to be little more than a repeat of what Professor Penrose had written. Sometimes it helps to read two different descriptions of the same thing. As to which one is more straightforward, I would say that it is very subjective. Perhaps if you had read mine first, you would be praising Professor Penrose for clearing up my explanation for you.

He seems to dance around it with pretty language while feeling a mathematician's obligation to tangle one's self in rigor.

As a mathematician wannabe myself, I have to disagree that there is anything like mathematical rigor in Professor Penrose's book. That is the charm of his book for me. To me it seems that he is explaining the underlying ideas without the fussiness over details and edge conditions that I am used to reading.

it might be better to spend more time on the concepts

A small stack of notecards could be an indispensable tool.

you should not hesitate to mark it up like a coloring book

Three excellent ideas.

I reread your previous message and I came to the realization that you may have misinterpretted the word 'contour' in the phrase contour integral. In this context, the paths are not related to the lines of constant elevation (contour lines), but rather relate to the outer edge (contour) of regions.

 

[mathwonk]

the group of paths up to homology is the abelianization of the group of apths modulo homotopy, so that's why the equivalence relation is broader.

i.e. any path of form A.A^-1.B.B^-1 is homotopic to zero, but also A.B.A^-1.B^-1 is homologous to zero.

since integration of a compelx differential is constant on homotopy classes, and defiens a homomorphism to an abelian group, namely the numbers, it is also constant on homology classes.

the whole purpose of these equivalence relations on paths was to state the cauchy integral theorem, and you could actually say that two paths are homologous if and only if the integrals of all complex holomorphic differential forms over them are the same.

 

[mathwonk]

riemann actually approaches the theory a little differently, he says two paths are equivalent if togetehr they form the boundary of a piece of surface in the given space. Then they have the same integral for all holo forms by stokes theorem.

his equivalence relation is essentially the same for surfaces i think, but in general may be different and is now called cobordism.

 

[Telos]

In this context, the paths are not related to the lines of constant elevation (contour lines), but rather relate to the outer edge (contour) of regions.

Oh, I see! That simple disambiguity changes a great deal. Thank you again.

 

[mathwonk]

the magical formula for the nth derivative of f(z) is the integral of f(t) multiplied by the n+1 st power of 1/(t-z), wrt t, roughly.

The magic of this is that it only involves powers, which make sense not just for n an integer but also for n an irrational, or even a complex number. Hence one can use it to take the <pi>th derivative! or the ith derivative.

This too is explained in Riemann's original works on compelx analysis.

By the way, professional mathematicians and physicists are themselves like kindergartners in their enthusiasm for math and its beauty, and are not talking down to people when they display it.

One thing puzzles me: is Penrose some kind of cult hero like Harry Potter? Why are so many people here dead set on reading a book they obviously do not have the background to read?

I.e. the goal seems to be to read PENROSE, rather than to learn the material from a sutiable source.

 

[Telos]

Mathwonk, I suppose physicists and mathematicians differ greatly on the meaning of "magic," then, from others in the populous, who see it as something that defies a law of nature or as something more New Age.

It strikes me particularly irritating here because magic relies on both illusion and stupefication to achieve its effects. I'm reading the book to be disillusioned... it's called Road to Reality, for chrissakes.

By the way, professional mathematicians and physicists are themselves like kindergartners in their enthusiasm for math and its beauty, and are not talking down to people when they display it.

Then they appear to use "magic" as synonomous with beauty. I can't disagree more. Magic, insofar as it is the intentional mystification of something, is the antithesis of beauty, and I am simply bothered by its use here.

But now that you mention it, I apologize for my kindergartener remark. It has been my intention to remove prejudice of age from my language. "Talking to a kindergartener" should not be connected with the meaning "talking down." Although there are no kindergarteners here to offend (I think), we secondarily harm them nonetheless.

[Edit: Oh, and that's not how I meant it originally... when we speak to children we often find it amusing to toy with them and confuse them, especially when they ask questions like, "how did you do that?" and you say, "magic!" But that's now how I meant it either... Instead of communicating his entusiasm it seems like Penrose is trying to market the ideas the make them more palatable. He could do it much better, I think, by proclaiming that they are not magic! And reveal their pervasive beauty for the reader.]

 

[mathwonk]

in this case, he means the conclusion one gets is far stronger than anyone has any right to expect, based on the tiny hypothesis, so it feels almost like magic. or perhaps one should say merely amazing, rather than beautiful.

I.e. the result is beautiful but the kicker is that you get so much bang for the buck in this result. why in complex calculus should assuming one derivative imply there are actually infinitely many? this never happens in real calculus. so "unexpected" and "extremely fortuitous" are other possible choices of words.

you should really meet the gentleman some time though as i was extremely fortunate to do, as he is the most charming unoffensive and modestly brilliant man. I am sure he would relieve your concern on this point infinitely better than I. He would probably even apologize he is so genuinely nice and considerate.