# The search for absolute infinity

1. Dec 21, 2003

### phoenixthoth TUZFC
the general idea is to find a way to axiomatize a universal set into existence in a way that doesn't contradict other axioms.

there are potential ways this might be done, including
1. changing the subsets axiom
2. using ternary logic and changing all axioms

1 would go something like this: there is a set with the usual subset properties UNLESS the existence of that subset leads to a contradiction.

2 would be to use 3 valued or ternary logic. see the two articles here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-fuzzy/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-manyvalued/

there isn't a unique way to do fuzzy logic, but let's at least assume that ternary logic generalizes binary logic in the following way:
$$\begin{array}{cccccccc} A & B & \symbol{126}A & A\vee B & A\wedge B & A\rightarrow B & A\leftrightarrow B & \left( A\wedge \left( A\rightarrow B\right) \right) \rightarrow B \\ T & T & F & T & T & T & T & T \\ T & M & F & T & M & M & M & M \\ T & F & F & T & F & F & F & T \\ M & T & M & T & M & T & M & T \\ M & M & M & M & M & M & M & M \\ M & F & M & M & F & M & M & M \\ F & T & T & T & F & T & F & T \\ F & M & T & M & F & T & M & T \\ F & F & T & F & F & T & T & T \end{array}$$

the main observation is that russell's paradox is based on a tautology that isn't a tautology in ternary logic. also note that the standard modus ponens above also fails to be a tautology. however, one may be able to resuce this fact by eliminating ternary logic from all axioms except the subsets axiom in the following way:
in non SS (subsets) axioms, if there is a well formed formula W, and V() is an operator that sends a wff to its truth value, then by replacing appearances of W in the axiom by V(W)=T, we get similar results as the axiom "intends" while still allowing V(W) to be occasionally M. for example, while A<->B if A and B are either both true or both false, V(A<->B)=M if either V(A)=M or V(B)=M. by replacing A<->B with V(A<->B)=T, we get the usual results.

in the case of SS, we can replace it by this:
SS2: $$\exists x\forall yV\left( \left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right) \right) \neq F$$.

this would not contradict the following axiom:
US: $$\exists x\forall yV\left( y\in x\right) =T$$
at least by russell's paradox. there may be other ways US contradicts TZFC, ternary-ZFC.

a list of axioms. in TUZFC, versions 2 would be more appropriate:
1. axiom of extensionality:

$$\forall x\left( x\in a\leftrightarrow x\in b\right) \rightarrow a=b$$

axiom of extensionality version 2:

$$V\left( \forall x\left( V\left( x\in a\leftrightarrow x\in b\right) =T\right) \rightarrow a=b\right) =T$$

2. axiom of the unordered pair:

$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y=a\vee y=b\right)$$

axiom of the unordered pair version 2:

$$V\left( \exists x\forall y\left( V\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y=a\vee y=b\right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

3. axiom of subsets:

$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right)$$

axiom of subsets version 2:

$$V\left( \exists x\forall yV\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right) =T\right) =T$$

axiom of subsets version 3:

$$V\left( \exists x\forall yV\left( \left( y\in x\leftrightarrow y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right) \right) \neq F\right) =T$$

4. axiom of the sum set:

$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow \exists z\in a\left( y\in z\right) \right)$$

axiom of the sum set version 2:

$$V\left( \exists x\forall y\left( V\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow \exists z\in a\left( y\in z\right) \right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

5. axiom of the power set:

$$\forall x\exists y\left( \forall z\left( z\in y\leftrightarrow z\subset x\right) \right)$$

axiom of the power set version 2:

$$V\left( \forall x\exists y\left( \forall zV\left( z\in y\leftrightarrow z\subset x\right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

6. axiom of the empty set:

$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\notin x\right)$$

axiom of the empty set version 2:

$$V$$$$\left( \exists x\forall yV\left( y\in x\right) =F\right) =T$$

7. axiom of infinity:

$$\exists x\left( \O \in x\wedge \forall y\in x\left( y^{\prime }\in x\right) \right)$$

axiom of infinity version 2:

$$V$$$$\left( \exists x\left( V\left( \O \in x\wedge \forall y\in x\left( y^{\prime }\in x\right) \right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

8. axiom of the universal set

$$V\left( \exists x\forall yV\left( y\in x\right) =T\right) =T$$

9. axiom of replacement:

$$\exists x\forall y\in a\left( \exists zA\left( y,z\right) \rightarrow \exists z\in xA\left( y,z\right) \right)$$

axiom of replacement version 2:

$$V\left( \exists x\forall y\in a\left( V\left( \exists zA\left( y,z\right) \rightarrow \exists z\in xA\left( y,z\right) \right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

10. axiom of foundation/regularity:

$$\exists xA\left( x\right) \rightarrow \exists x\left( A\left( x\right) \wedge \forall y\in x\left( !A\left( y\right) \right) \right)$$

axiom of foundation/regularity version 2:

$$V\left( \exists xA\left( x\right) \rightarrow \exists x\left( V\left( A\left( x\right) \wedge \forall y\in x\left( !A\left( y\right) \right) \right) =T\right) \right) =T$$

11. axiom of choice (typo?):

$$\forall x\in a\exists A\left( x,y\right) \rightarrow \exists y\forall x\in aA\left( x,y\left( x\right) \right)$$.

axiom of choice version 2:

$$V\left( \forall x\in a\exists A\left( x,y\right) \rightarrow \exists y\forall x\in aA\left( x,y\left( x\right) \right) \right) =T$$

Last edited: Dec 22, 2003
2. 3. Dec 22, 2003

### Organic Here is another possability:

General Information Framework (GIF) set theory

Set (which notated by ‘{‘ and ‘}’) is an object that used as General Information Framework.

Set's property depends on its information’s type.

There are 2 basic types of information that can be examined through GIF.

1.a) Empty set ={}
2.a) Non-empty set

(2.a) has 3 non-empty set’s types:

1.b) Finitely many objects ( {a,b} ).
2.b) Infinitely many objects ( {a,b,…} ).
3.b) Infinite object ( {__} ).

(3.b) Is the opposite of the Empty set, therefore {__}=Full set.

GIF has two limits:

The lowest limit is {}(=Empty set).

The highest limit is {__}(=Full set).

Both limits are unreachable by (1.b) or (2.b) non-empty set’s types.

Or in another words:

Any information system exists in the open interval of ({},{__}).

Infinitely many objects ( {a,b,…} ) cannot be completed, therefore words like ‘all’ or ‘complete’ cannot be used with sets that have infinitely many objects.

{} or {__} are actual infinity.

{a,b,...} is potential infinity.

An example:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/LIM.pdf

Question:

So what can we do with this theory that we can't do with standard set theory?

A non-formal answer (yet):

Please look at this two articles:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/ET.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/CATheory.pdf

At this stage you have to look at them as non-formal overviews, but with a little help from my friends, they are going to be addressed in a rigorous formal way.

All the energy that was used to research the transfinite universes, is going to be used to research the information concept itself, including researches that explore our own cognition's abilities to create and develop the Math language itself.

By GIF set theory our models does not have to be quantified before we can deal with them, because GIF set theory has the ability to deal with any information structure in a direct way, which keeps its dynamic natural complexity during the research.

Concepts like symmetry-degree, Information's clarity-degree, uncertainty, redundancy and complementarity, are some of the fundamentals of this theory.

I am going to open a new thread for this.

Organic

Last edited: Dec 22, 2003
4. Dec 22, 2003

### phoenixthoth self-aware structures

the hope is that since the subsets axiom is the only one structurally modified that will mean that we can still apply modus ponens as if it were a tautology; care will have to be taken with the subsets axiom. i will investigate this further.

the hope is that U, the set mentioned in the second infinity axiom, has self-awareness structure. for definition, including a link to a relevant article on a proposed TOE, see this web site:

the idea behind U having self-awareness structure is that if any sets have it, then U must also. while you may object to living in a mathematical structure, let me point out that they can have a dual static and dynamic aspect, not unlike certain dualities in quantum mechanics. for example, f(x)=x^2 is nonconstant while if you view it as a set, {(0,0),(1,1),(2,4),...}, it is static.

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2015
5. Dec 22, 2003

### phoenixthoth changes

it doesn't make much sense to write V( )=T around each axiom...

seems that the axiom of extensionality would have to be modified for fuzzy subsets like the S in russell's paradox to something like this:
extensionality version 3:
$$\forall x\left( V\left( x\in a\right) =V\left( x\in b\right) \right) \rightarrow a=b$$.

without this, it seems difficult to prove that S=S since
V(S&isin;S)=M.

axiom of subsets version 4:
$$\exists x\forall yV\left( y\in x\right) =V\left( y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right)$$

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
6. Dec 23, 2003

### Organic Hi phoenixthoth,

Does U defined by 'infinitely many ...'?

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
7. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth that is one way to describe U.

U is the set mentioned in axiom 8 above.

8. Dec 23, 2003

### Organic Another subject: In my opinion, self-awareness is based on the ability to associate between opposite concepts.

When this ability points to itself, but remains open to anything which is not itself, then and only then we can talk about its awareness.

What do you think?

9. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth U could have awareness of all sets but nothing besides that, perhaps.

i think what you're talking about would be regarding proof of awareness. one may be aware but have no frame of reference to be able to prove, even to itself, that it is aware.

i believe sets like U can have a dual dynamic and static nature, depending on your perspective.

10. Dec 23, 2003

### Organic Then what is the meaning of the word 'aware' if 'awareness' does not 'aware' to its 'awareness'?

11. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth it is aware but it can't prove it. i think if a math structure has awareness, it can't prove it. however, if you feed it into a computer, maybe it can prove it is aware.

12. Dec 23, 2003

### Russell E. Rierson [ abstract representation]--->[semantic mapping]--->[represented system]

An abstract representation is exactly that, "abstract". It is not a space, or time, but is instead a product of consciousness, or a mental construct. Topologically it is equivalent to a "point". The abstract description contains the concrete topology. Likewise, the concrete contains the abstract.

A duality.

A point contains an infinite expanse of space and time?

Could it be, that the "absolute" infinity, is actually a dimensionless point?

Since it is possible for a "computation" to be self aware, there must be platonic forms that are types of self aware algorithms:

The description of any entity inside the real universe can only be with reference to other things in the universe. Space is then relational, and the universe, self referential. For example, if an object has a momentum, that momentum can only be explained with respect to another object within the universe. Space then becomes an aspect of the relationships between things in reality. It becomes analogous to a sentence, and it is absurd to say that a sentence has no words in it. So the grammatical structure of each sentence[space] is defined by the relationships that hold between the words in it. For example, relationships like object-subject or adjective-noun. So there are many different grammatical structures composed of different arrangements of words, and the varied relationships between them.

Language describes the universe, because the universe is isomorphic to a description on some level, and reality can only refer to itself, because, there is nothing outside of ..."total existence" which becomes equivalent to a self referential system, which must be a self aware system. Since descriptions make distinctions, or references to other entities, and distinctions are tautologically logical, [A or ~A], reality is logical, in that its contents can be described by a language. The contents within reality are distinctive entities, individually different from the others, yet consisting of the same foundational substance.

According to Berkeley, perception is consistent due to the fact that a type of mental universal self consistency must apply to the collective whole of individual perceptions. A type of universal being of superior intelligence who creates a world by the power of thought, in which every object becomes, for the percipient, the collected results of many perceptions, or bits of information. That is to say, sensory objects are compositions derived from many perceptual experiences over a period of time, originating from a universal compositional entity, or "BEING". These perceptions are impressed upon each individual mind with order and consistency. Since this universal "Self Awareness" must sustain Creation at all times, everything is always perceived by this self referring, self referential entity, ergo, total reality continues "to exist", even though it may cease to be experienced by any individual self aware perceiver.

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
13. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth perhaps the difficulty in proving that U exists in a noncontradictory way has to do with proving that awareness exists anywhere.

14. Dec 23, 2003

### Russell E. Rierson There must be Goedelian limitations on a consistent and "complete" definition of self awareness?

If "To Exist" means "TO BE", it is a first principle which is an absolute, or synonymously, an abstract beginning; that does not presuppose anything, it is not be mediated by anything which means that it is the ontological substrate for the whole "she-bang". It does not have a basis; rather it is to be itself the basis of the entirety of existence itself. The Total Existensial Entity is called "TCE" [Total Compositional Existence].

It cannot possess any determination relatively to anything outside itself, so too it cannot contain within itself any determination, any content, for any such would be a distinguishing and an interrelationship of distinct moments, and consequently a mediation. Ergo the beginning is "Pure Being."

While the concept of Being is an empty concept, whose content is nothing, it becomes clear that the concept of Nothing, has equivalently, the same content as the concept of Being, but which seems to stand in diametric opposition to it. Nothingness is . . . of the same determination, or rather, an abscence of determination, and thus altogether the same as, the pure essence of Being. On the other hand, paradoxically, Being and Nothing are not the same. So there is the difference of Being and Nothing passing into identity, and the identity passing into difference. Ergo, their truth is, this movement of the immediate vanishing of one in the other: becoming, a movement in which both are distinguished, but by a difference which has equally immediately resolved itself. A self resolving paradox. The new concept is generated by the "sublation" of the first two. This process of generating a third concept as expressing the identity and difference of the first two is fundamental to the discipline of logic?

15. Dec 23, 2003

### Organic Let us examine this idea:

Question: Whet is silence?

1) “I don’t know”.
2) “No sound waves at all”.
3) “3 o’clock in Saturday’s morning”.
4) No answer has been given.

(1) Is an honest answer.
(2) Is a scientific answer.
(3) Is a subjective answer.
(4) Is a direct demonstration of silence.

Now, (1) to (3) answers are on silence.

(4) Is a direct response by demonstration.

There is a preventive ratio between (1) to (3) answers and silence itself,
and it leads us to this paradox:

If you answer then there is no silence.

If you keep silence then you don’t give an answer.

I think that “silence’s paradox” can be translated to “awareness’s paradox”,
which means, no model of awareness is awareness itself.

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
16. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth the answer is this:

in words, no answer.

this has to do with proof of awareness vs having awareness without proof of it. we can cavilierly define what it means to be infinite and we do it in such a way that an infinite set was axiomatized into existence by one of the infinity axioms (7 or 8 above, i think); so why can't we make up axioms of a so-called SAS? define under 20 properties and then see if axiomatizing such a set into existence like the infinity axiom contradicts anything.

17. Dec 23, 2003

### Organic phoenixthoth,

Please let me ask you once more:

You say that U is (something) of all sets.

By connecting the word 'all' the the letter 's' (sets), as much as i can see, the result cannot be but 'infinitely many ...'.

Am i right?

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003
18. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth infinity is a defined concept. what do you mean by infinitely many? well, some people think it means that for no n in N is x in bijection with n. (n={0,...,n-1}). by the other infinity axiom, that x has infinitely many objects. the defining property of U is that it is true that for all sets x, x &isin; U. now, one has to prove that there are infinitely many sets by the axioms. the statement reduces to this:
1. if there are infinitely many sets, whatever infinitely many means, then U has infinitely many objects.
1. if there are not infinitely many sets, whatever infinitely many means, then U does not have infinitely many objects.

19. Dec 23, 2003

### Hurkyl Staff Emeritus
I said I'd look at this, and I will, once I'm not quite as busy.

I just didn't want you to think I'd forgotten about this.

20. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth i'm working on an update so it might be best if you wait for at least 12 hours, if not more.

hint: i found one possible resuce of modus ponens along with a way to crispify (fry) some of the fuzzy logic out of the axioms i don't want it in. this involves adding some connectives in a way similar to "On a set theory with uncertain membership relations", located here:
http://kurt.scitec.kobe-u.ac.jp/~kikuchi/papers/his2003.pdf

this apparently has been done without ternary logic in another way by quine called "new foundations." i don't believe he uses ternary logic at the level of axioms.

http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes/holmes/nf.html

for those of you looking for an online intro to set theory, along with forcing techniques which can evidently do things like prove consistency of axioms, check out this article:
http://staff.science.uva.nl/~vervoort/AST/ast.pdf

(if i want to get a phd, are there any schools around who do dynamics and set theory/logic? i'm not sure which of the two areas i'd want to go into and i've always liked both...)

Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
21. Dec 23, 2003

### phoenixthoth restatement plus a bit more

notation elements and subsets:

$$\in _{V}$$is a relation on sets such that $$a\in _{V\left( a\in b\right) }b:=V\left( a\in b\right)$$. so, for example, if $$V\left( a\in b\right) =M$$, then we can just write $$a\in _{M}b$$. if $$V\left( a\in b\right) =T$$ or $$V\left( a\in b\right) =F$$, we'll just use the usual notation $$a\in b$$ or $$a\notin b$$ instead of $$a\in _{T}b$$ and $$a\in _{F}b$$.

connectives:

$$A\rightarrow _{T}B$$ will mean that $$V\left( A\rightarrow B\right) =T$$ and, similarly, $$A\leftrightarrow _{T}B$$ means $$V\left( A\leftrightarrow B\right) =T$$. note that if $$A\leftrightarrow _{T}B$$, then either $$V\left( A\right) =V\left( B\right) =T$$ or $$V\left( A\right) =V\left( B\right) =F$$.

another logical connective is $$\leftrightarrow _{=}$$ which is defined this way:\ $$A\leftrightarrow _{=}B$$ iff $$V\left( A\right) =V\left( B\right)$$. $$A\leftrightarrow _{=}B$$ if and only if $$A$$ and $$B$$ have the same truth value.

a third new logical connective is $$\leftrightarrow _{\neq F}$$which means is $$V\left( A\leftrightarrow _{\neq F}B\right) =T$$ iff $$V\left( A\leftrightarrow B\right) \neq F$$, else $$V\left( A\leftrightarrow _{\neq F}B\right) =F$$.

second truth table:

$$\begin{array}{cccccccc} A & B & A\rightarrow B & A\rightarrow _{T}B & A\leftrightarrow B & A\leftrightarrow _{T}B & A\leftrightarrow _{=}B & A\leftrightarrow _{\neq F}B \\ T & T & T & T & T & T & T & T \\ T & M & M & F & M & F & F & T \\ T & F & F & F & F & F & F & F \\ M & T & T & T & M & F & F & T \\ M & M & M & F & M & F & T & T \\ M & F & M & F & M & F & F & T \\ F & T & T & T & F & F & F & F \\ F & M & T & T & M & F & F & T \\ F & F & T & T & T & T & T & T \end{array}$$

observations: (here, $$A$$ and $$B$$ can have any ternary truth value)

1. $$\left( A\leftrightarrow _{T}B\right) \rightarrow \left( A\leftrightarrow _{=}B\right)$$ is a tautology.

2. (modified modus ponens) $$\left( A\wedge \left( A\rightarrow _{T}B\right) \right) \rightarrow B$$ is a tautology.

3. $$B\leftrightarrow _{T}\symbol{126}B$$ is always false.

4. $$B\leftrightarrow _{=}\symbol{126}B$$ is true iff $$V\left( B\right) =M$$, otherwise it is false.

5. (contradiction 1) $$\left( A\rightarrow \left( B\leftrightarrow \symbol{126}B \right) \right) \rightarrow \symbol{126}A$$ is not a tautology.

6. (contradiction 2) $$\left( A\rightarrow \left( B\leftrightarrow _{T} \symbol{126}B\right) \right) \rightarrow \symbol{126}A$$ is not a tautology.

7. (contradiction 3) $$\left( A\rightarrow \left( B\leftrightarrow _{=} \symbol{126}B\right) \right) \rightarrow \symbol{126}A$$ is not a tautology.

8. (contradiction 4) $$\left( A\rightarrow \left( B\leftrightarrow _{\neq F} \symbol{126}B\right) \right) \rightarrow \symbol{126}A$$ is not a tautology.

restatement of all nonchoice axioms with this notation:

axiom of extensionality version 2 (in version 2, it is not clear that a fuzzy set equals itself):
$$\forall x\left( x\in a\leftrightarrow _{T}x\in b\right) \rightarrow a=b$$

axiom of extensionality version 3:
$$\forall x\left( x\in a\leftrightarrow _{=}x\in b\right) \rightarrow a=b$$

2. axiom of the unordered pair version 2:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow _{T}y=a\vee y=b\right)$$

3. axiom of subsets version 2:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow _{T}y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right)$$

axiom of subsets version 3:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow _{\neq F}y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right)$$

axiom of subsets version 4:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow _{=}y\in a\wedge A\left( y\right) \right)$$

4. axiom of the sum set version 2:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\leftrightarrow _{T}\exists z\in a\left( y\in z\right) \right)$$

5. axiom of the power set version 2:
$$\forall x\exists y\forall z\left( z\in y\leftrightarrow _{T}z\subset x\right)$$

axiom of the power set version 3:
$$\forall x\exists y\forall z\left( z\in y\leftrightarrow _{=}z\subset x\right)$$

6. axiom of the empty set:
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\notin x\right)$$

7. axiom of infinity:
$$\exists x\left( \O \in x\wedge \forall y\in x\left( y^{\prime }\in x\right) \right)$$

axiom of infinity version 2:
$$\exists x\left( \O \in x\wedge \forall y\in x\left( y^{\prime }\in x\right) \right)$$

8. axiom of the universal set
$$\exists x\forall y\left( y\in x\right)$$

9. axiom of replacement version 2:
$$\exists x\forall y\in a\left( \exists zA\left( y,z\right) \rightarrow _{T}\exists z\in xA\left( y,z\right) \right)$$

10. axiom of foundation/regularity version 2:
$$\exists xA\left( x\right) \rightarrow _{T}\exists x\left( A\left( x\right) \wedge \forall y\in x\left( !A\left( y\right) \right) \right)$$

Last edited: Dec 23, 2003