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The SM masters having fun in Iraqs prison

  1. Apr 29, 2004 #1
    American dignity and freedom in Iraq? The great feeling of having the power? Shame on US ... bring prisoners to JUSTICE ?. What justice? Sick Justice.

    A photo from TV shows an Iraqi prisoner with a hood over his head, standing on a box and with wires connected to his hands. Photo: Sky News
    http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/29/430_hoodedman,0.jpg

    United States soldiers at a prison outside Baghdad have been accused of forcing Iraqi prisoners into acts of sexual humiliation and other abuses.

    The charges, first announced by the military in March, were documented by photographs taken by guards in the prison.

    Some of the photographs, and descriptions of others, were broadcast in the US on Wednesday by a CBS television news program and were verified by military officials.

    Of the six people reported in March to be facing preliminary charges, three have been recommended for courts martial.

    The program reported that poorly trained US reservists were forcing Iraqis to conduct simulated sexual acts in order to break down their will before they were turned over to others for interrogation.

    In one photograph naked Iraq prisoners stand in a human pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. Photo: http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/29/200_humanpyramid,0.jpg

    In another, a prisoner stands on a box, his head covered, wires attached to his body. The news show said that, according to the army, he had been told that if he fell off the box he would be electrocuted. Other photographs show male prisoners positioned to simulate sex with each other.

    "The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners," a transcript said.

    "And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing or giving the camera a thumbs-up."

    The program's producers said the army also had photographs showing a detainee with wires attached to his genitals and another that showed a dog attacking a prisoner.

    The photographs were taken inside Abu Ghraib prison, near Baghdad, where US forces have been holding hundreds of Iraqis.

    Gary Myers, the lawyer for one of the enlisted men who has been charged, said the military had treated the six enlisted soldiers as scapegoats and had failed to deal adequately with the responsibilities of senior commanders and intelligence personnel involved in the interrogations.

    Officers at the prison, including a brigadier-general, faced administrative review, officials said.

    Mr Myers said that the accused men, all from a reserve military police unit, were told to soften up the prisoners by more senior interrogators, some of whom they believe were intelligence officials and outside contractors.

    "This case involves a monumental failure of leadership, where lower level enlisted people are being scapegoated," Mr Myers said. "The real story is not in these six young enlisted people. The real story is the manner in which the intelligence community forced them into this position."

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/29/1083224523783.html
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 29, 2004 #2
    the US will bring them to justice :)
     
  4. Apr 29, 2004 #3
    No surprise...the military is ill-suited to dispense justice, as anyone with a bit of sense should be able to figure out.
     
  5. Apr 29, 2004 #4
    You mean the prisoners?
     
  6. Apr 29, 2004 #5
    This is a case that came in the public. How much more ... undiscovered or unknown?
     
  7. Apr 29, 2004 #6
    Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, in charge of the prison, could be relieved of her command, blocked from promotion or receive a letter of reprimand after a noncriminal administrative investigation relating to events at Abu Ghraib prison, said Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad.
    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4992675

    But of course the good news is : That this Brig. Gen. can be hired by Halliburton. People with experience are high valued in the private business. :biggrin: ... and that's really good news ... isn't it? So Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski can be soon back in Iraq to keep all 'stay in ..... course'!
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2004
  8. Apr 29, 2004 #7
    So, the people in the military broke the military's rules, and are now being dealt with - I fail to see the point. Shame on ths US for stopping this rule breaking?
     
  9. Apr 29, 2004 #8
    As always it works like this:
    - Something good happens, and we can thank America, Bush, and "freedom".
    - Something bad happens, and it's all the fault of those few little guys over there.

    The USA signed laws to avoid this stuff, to prevent it happening, and every time they get busted, they attempt to avoid responsibility by simply blaming a few individuals.
     
  10. Apr 30, 2004 #9
    When a crime is committed, it is generally considered proper to punish the people who committed that crime. Do you not understand the logic behind this concept?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2004
  11. Apr 30, 2004 #10
    The commander is responsible for the actions fo his troops. Command structure. Do you understand the logic behind this concept?
     
  12. Apr 30, 2004 #11

    Yes, and the higher ups are punishing those and taking measures to stop this from happening.
    Perhaps, when Australian servicemen go out raping, we should blame you - for in the eyes of a democracy, it is the people who are really in control of the government.
     
  13. Apr 30, 2004 #12

    russ_watters

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    Staff: Mentor

    There is a failure here on many levels:

    Even a private should be mature enough to know at least on a basic level what is/isn't acceptable - but I know a lot aren't.

    The staff sgt in charge wasn't qualified for the job. He should have done more about that.

    Any officers within earshot certainly did know what was ok and what wasn't. That's part of officer training. Regardless of what orders they get from above, they have an enormous amount of power on a local level. I put most of the blame on them.

    The upper levels of the military - high officers in the theater and up into the pentagon should have a clear policy in place for treatment of POWs and procedures for making sure it happens. The basic guidlines for that policy come from...

    ...The President himself.
     
  14. Apr 30, 2004 #13
    Quite right. So yes, the people of the USA are responsible for their government, and for the actions of their military, who broke a law that nation signed on to.
     
  15. Apr 30, 2004 #14
    So yeah, the people are all facing court martial - what more do you want? to predict the wrongs of individuals?
     
  16. Apr 30, 2004 #15
    Perhaps the USA government and people could accept responsibility for what they have done, rather than simply say "It was those few guys over there, and we're firing them, so we can all forget about it and move on now".
     
  17. Apr 30, 2004 #16

    Njorl

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    Science Advisor

    Things like this do happen in most wars. The scale determines who should be punished. So far, at least there was no attempted cover up. It was not exposed by the press, it was exposed by an enlisted man, a private I believe, who went outside the chain of command to report it.

    What I want to know, is why was it publicized by 60 minutes instead of the Army. Long before 60 minutes knew about it , the army knew it. The army should have put one of their own journalists on it. They should have written it up, translated it into Arabic and given it widespread dissemination in Iraq. The story then would have been "American Army aggressively proscecutes soldiers who abuse Iraqis." Instead, it is "American soldiers torture Iraqis in Saddam's prison."

    Both stories are true. Which do we want Iraqis reading?

    Njorl
     
  18. Apr 30, 2004 #17

    russ_watters

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    Staff: Mentor

    I know its rhetorical, but unfortunately, thats simply not how militaries or governments - or in all fairness, most individuals, deal with problems.
     
  19. Apr 30, 2004 #18
    And this would change our actions how?
     
  20. Apr 30, 2004 #19
    This give some info:

    Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

    60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0428-13.htm
    I suggest you read the full article, since it contains interesting quote like:

    (1) "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

    "They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

    "We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."

    (2)"The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating,” says Myers. “And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view as important.""
     
  21. Apr 30, 2004 #20
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