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News The surprising origins of the current Jihad

  1. Jul 4, 2005 #1
    The surprising origins of the current "Jihad"

    Well, I must say, this shocked me (though why it should, I cannot imagine - I thought nothing would shock me any more). Anyway, here's an extract from the March 23, 2002 Washington Post article that I've just read that shocked me:
    Sorry, I have no questions or issues to debate - I am still stunned. Well, well, well...
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 4, 2005 #2
    I am having the same reaction. It is shocking and yet it sounds about right. The long term affects of artificial interference (whether in the environment, or in political/social affairs of other countries) often is miscalculated.

    This is further to point that we need a consistent and meaningful foreign policy. A policy with long term thought to the consequences, and hopefully one with real sincerity to be a positive force in the world rather than self serving and ultimately destructive. Until the US realizes this, resentment and hatred of our country will continue, and ultimately we suffer the consequences.
  4. Jul 4, 2005 #3
    Let's see, neither one of you have actually read the textbooks. The WaPo writers provide no empirical evidence correlating American education dollars to Afghanistan to the size and strength of jihadis today. In fact, there's not even an attempt to characterize and quantify this so-called Afghan "culture of violence."

    It's a great story; how you react to it is a measure of how easily you're impressed by innuendo and anecdote.

    Rev Prez
  5. Jul 4, 2005 #4


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    That is without a doubt the most ridiculous reponse I have seen, even from you. :rofl: :rofl: BTW what is the mathematical equation for war? :biggrin:
  6. Jul 4, 2005 #5
    So you're saying that you don't need demonstrable evidence for the charge to accept it? That says a lot about you.

    Rev Prez
  7. Jul 4, 2005 #6


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    Actually it speaks volumes of your inability to understand issues on a macro level. I mean, asking for the mathematical correlation between Jihad and propagana text books. Get real :rolleyes: Mind you maybe you should look into it as it sounds just like the sort of project that would suit somebody of your abilities :rofl: Maybe you could start by sending out a questionaire to would be suicide bombers asking them about their schooling.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2005
  8. Jul 4, 2005 #7
    So at the "macro level" we should reject mathematical methods and just go with Art's gut? In that case, I nominate Art to be a Mentor for the Social Sciences forum.

    I think the term you're grasping for is field work. Surveying the families, friends, and neighbors of suicide bombers, terrorists, insurgents and other militants is common enough in journalism. A more pedestrian experience includes Petersen crafted a network theory of resistence and rebellion, but scholars travel to Palestine, North Africa, Sudan and Somalia, Southeast Asia and Oceania, and other trouble spots all the time.

    Rev Prez
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2005
  9. Jul 4, 2005 #8


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    Why thank you Prez, too kind. :blushing: But again I'll ask you what are the mathematical equations for war?
  10. Jul 4, 2005 #9
    Care to rephrase?

    Rev Prez
  11. Jul 4, 2005 #10
    From the article:


    who is this genius? you can bet your sweet apples that they are natural warriors

    from http://www.gandhara.com.au/afghan_table.html

    522 BC -
    486 BC Darius the Great expands the Persian empire to its peak, taking most of Afghanistan, including Aria (Herat), Bactriana (Balk, and present-day Mazar-i-Shariff, Margiana (Merv), Gandhara (Kabul, Jalalabad and Peshawar), Sattagydia (Ghazni to the Indus river), Arachosia (Kandahar, and Quetta), and Drangiana (Sistan). The Persian empire was plagued by constant bitter and bloody tribal revolts from Afghans living in Arachosia (Kandahar, and Quetta)

    550 AD Persians reassert control over all of what is now Afghanistan. Various Afghan tribes revolt.
    652 AD Arabs introduce Islam
    962 - 1030 Islamic era established with the Ghaznavid Dynasty (962-1140) Afghanistan becomes the centre of Islamic power and civilization.
    1030 Mahmud Ghazni dies. Conflicts between various Ghaznavid rulers arise and as a result the empire starts to crumple.
    1140 Ghorid leaders from central Afghanistan capture and burn Ghazni, then move on to conquer India.
    1219 - 1221 Invasion of Afghanistan by Genghis Khan and the destruction of Irrigation systems, which turned fertile soil into permanent deserts.
    1332 - 1370 Descendants of earlier Ghorid rulers reassert control over Afghanistan.
    1370 - 1404 The rule of Timour-i-Lang (Tamerlane) Afghan resistance
    1451 An Afghan named Buhlul invades Delhi, and seizes the throne.
    1504 - 1519 Babur, founder of the Moghul dynasty takes control of Kabul
    1520 - 1579 Bayazid Roshan (Afghan intellectual) revolts against the power of the Moghul government. Roshan was killed in a battle with the Moghuls in 1579, his struggle for independence continued.
    1613 - 1689 Khushhal Khan Khattak (Afghan warrior & poet) initiates a national uprising against the foreign Moghul government.
    1722 Mir Wais' son, Mir Mahmud, invades Persia and occupies Isfahan. At the same time, the Durranis revolt, and terminate the Persian occupation of Herat.
    1725 Mir Mahmud is mysteriously killed and Afghans start to lose control of Persia.
    1736 Nadir Shah (head of Persia) occupies southwest Afghanistan, and southeast Persia.
    1738 Nadir Shah takes Kandahar.
    1747 Nadir Shah is assassinated, and the Afghans rise once again. Afghans, under the leadership of Ahmad Shah Abdali retake Kandahar, and establish modern Afghanistan.
    1747 - 1773 Rule of Ahmad Shah Abdali (Durrani). Ahmad Shah consolidates and enlarges Afghanistan. He defeats the Moghuls in the west of the Indus, and he takes Herat away from the Persians. Ahmad Shah Durrani's empire extended from Central Asia to Delhi, from Kashmir to the Arabian sea. It became the greatest Muslim empire in the second half of the 18th century.
    1773 - 1793 Rule of Timur Shah Capital of Afghanistan transferred from Kandahar to Kabul because of tribal opposition. Constant internal revolts
    1793 - 1801 Rule of Zaman Shah Constant internal revolts (1795) Persians invade Khurasan province
    1801 - 1803 Rule of Mahmood Constant internal revolts
    1803 - 1809 Rule of Shah Shujah (1805) Persian attack on Herat fails. Internal fighting
    1809 - 1818 Mahmood returns to the throne. War with Persia - indecisive victory Internal fighting
    1819 - 1826 Sons of Timur Shah struggle for the throne - Civil War, anarchy, Afghans lose Sind permanently
    1826 Dost Mohammad Khan takes Kabul, and establishes control
    1832 - 1833 Persia moves into Khurasan province, and threatens Herat. Afghans successfully defend Herat
    1834 Afghans lose Peshawar to the Sikhs; later they crushed the Sikhs under the leadership of Akbar Khan who defeated the Sikhs near Jamrud, and killed the great Sikh general Hari Singh. However, they failed to retake Peshawar due to disunity and bad judgment on the part of Dost Mohammad Khan.
    1836 Dost Mohammad Khan is proclaimed as Amir al-mu' minin (commander of the faithful). He was well on the road toward reunifying the whole of Afghanistan when the British, in collaboration with an ex-king (Shah Shuja), invade Afghanistan.
    1839 - 1842 First Anglo-Afghan War After some resistance, Amir Dost Mohammad Khan surrenders to the British and is deported to India. Shah Shuja is installed as a 'puppet king' by the British. (1839-1842) April 1842 - Shah Shuja killed by Afghans. Afghans passionately continue their struggle against the British. Akbar Khan victorious against the British. In January 1842, out of 16,500 soldiers (and 12,000 dependants) only one survivor, of mixed British-Indian garrison, reaches the fort in Jalalabad, on a stumbling pony.
    1843 After the annihilation of British troops, Afghanistan once again becomes independent, and the exiled Amir, Dost Mohammad Khan comes back and occupies the royal throne (1843-1863).
    1845 Afghan hero, Akbar Khan dies
    1855 Dost Mohammad Khan signs a peace treaty with India.
    1859 British take Baluchistan, and Afghanistan becomes completely landlocked.
    1863 - 1866 Sher Ali, Dost Mohammad Khan's son, succeeds to the throne. 1865 Russia takes Bukhara, Tashkent, and Samarkand.
    1866 - 1867 Mohammad Afzal occupies Kabul and proclaims himself Amir. October 1867 Mohammad Afzal dies.
    1867 - 1868 Mohammad Azam succeeds to the throne 1868--Mohammad Azam flees to Persia Sher Ali reasserts control (1868-1879).
    1873 Russia established a fixed boundary between Afghanistan and it's new territories. Russia promises to respect Afghanistan's territorial integrity.
    1878 Start of second Anglo-Afghan War The British invade and the Afghans quickly put up a strong resistance.
    1879 Sher Ali dies in Mazar-i-Shariff, and Amir Muhammad Yaqub Khan takes over until October. Amir Muhammad Yaqub Khan gives up the following Afghan territories to the British: Kurram, Khyber, Michni, Pishin, and Sibi. Afghans lose these territories permanently.
    1880 Battle of Maiwand July 1880. Abdur Rahman takes throne of Afghanistan as Amir. The British, shortly after the accession of the new Amir, withdraw from Afghanistan, although they retain the right to handle Afghanistan's foreign relations. Abdur Rahman establishes fixed borders and he loses a lot of Afghan land. Nuristan converted to Islam.
    1885 The Panjdeh Incident Russian forces seize the Panjdeh Oasis, a piece of Afghan territory north of the Oxus River. Afghans tried to retake it, but was finally forced toallow the Russians to keep Panjdeh, and the Russians promised to honor Afghan territorial integrity in the future.
    1893 The Durand line fixes borders of Afghanistan with British India, splitting Afghan tribal areas, leaving half of these Afghans in what is now Pakistan.
    1895 Afghanistan's northern border is fixed and guaranteed by Russia
    1901 Abdur Rahman dies, his son Habibullah succeeds him. Slows steps toward modernization
    1907 Russia and Great Britain sign the convention of St. Petersburg, in which Afghanistan is declared outside Russia's sphere of influence.
    1918 Mahmud Tarzi (Afghan Intellectual) introduces modern Journalism into Afghanistan with the creation of several newspapers.
    1919 Habibullah is assassinated, and succeeded by his son Amanullah 'The reform King' The first museum in Afghanistan is instituted at Baghe Bala.
    1921 Third Anglo-Afghan war Once again, the British are defeated, and Afghanistan gains full control of her foreign affairs. Amanullah Khan initiates a series of ambitious efforts at social and political modernization.
    1923 Amanullah Khan changes his title from Amir to Padshah (King).
    1929 Amanullah Khan is overthrown by Habibullah Kalakani. After the fall of Amanullah Khan, Mahmud Tarzi seeks asylum in Turkey. The Rise and Fall of Habibullah Kalakani, popularly known as "Bache Saqao" Nadir Khan takes the throne; his tribal army loots government buildings and houses of wealthy citizens because the treasury was empty. Habibullah Kalakani, along with his supporters, and a few supporters of Amanullah Khan are killed by Nadir Khan. Now Nadir Khan establishes full control.
    1930 Pro-Amanullah Khan uprising put down by Nadir Khan. Nadir Khan abolishes reforms set forth by Amanullah Khan to modernize Afghanistan.
    1933 Nadir Khan assassinated by a college student, and his son, Zahir, inherits the throne. He rules until 1973. Zahir Shah's uncles serve as prime ministers and advisors until 1953. Mahmud Tarzi dies in Turkey at the age of 68 with a heart full of sorrow and despair toward his country.
    1934 The United States of America formally recognizes Afghanistan
    1940 Zahir Shah proclaims Afghanistan as neutral during WW2
    1947 Britain withdraws from India. Pakistan is carved out of Indian and Afghan lands.
    1949 Afghanistan's Parliament denounces the Durand Treaty and refuses to recognize the Durand line as a legal boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Pashtuns in Pashtunistan (Occupied Afghan Land) proclaim an independent Pashtunistan, but their proclamation goes unacknowledged by the world community.
    1953 Prince Mohammad Daoud becomes Prime Minister.
    1954 The U.S. rejects Afghanistan's request to buy military equipment to modernize the army.
    1955 Daoud turns to the Soviet Union (Russia) for military aid. The Pashtunistan (occupied Afghan land) issue flares up.
    1956 Kruschev and Bulgaria agree to help Afghanistan. Close ties between Afghanistan and USSR.
    1959 The Purdah is made optional, women begin to enrol in the University which has become coeducational. Women begin to enter the workforce, and the government.
    1961 Pakistan and Afghanistan come close to war over Pashtunistan.
    1963 - 1964 Zahir Shah demands Daoud's resignation. Dr. Mohammad Yusof becomes Prime Minister.
    1965 The Afghan Communist Party was secretly formed in January. Babrak Karmal is one of the founders. In September, first nationwide elections under the new constitution. Karmal was elected to the Parliament, later instigates riots. Zahir and Yussof form second government.
    1969 Second nationwide elections. Babrak and Hafizullah Amin are elected.
    1972 Mohammad Moussa becomes Prime Minister.
    1973 July 17th: Zahir Shah is on vacation in Europe, when his government is overthrown in a military coup headed by Daoud Khan and PDPA (Afghan Communist Party). Daoud Khan abolishes the monarchy, declares himself President and the Republic of Afghanistan is established.
    1974 UNESCO names Herat as one of the first cities to be designated as a part of the worlds cultural heritage
    1975 - 1977 Daoud Khan presents a new constitution. Women's rights confirmed. Daoud starts to oust suspected opponents from his government.
    1978 Bloody Communist coup: Daoud is killed, Taraki is named President, and Karmal becomes his deputy Prime Minister. Tensions rise. Mass arrests, tortures, and arrests takes place. Afghan flag is changed. Taraki signs treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union. June, Afghan guerrilla (Mujahideen) movement is born.
    1979 Mass killings US ambassador killed Taraki is killed and Hafizullah Amin takes the Presidency. Amin is executed, and he is replaced with Babrak Karmal. Soviet Union invade in December.
    1980 Dr. Najibullah is brought back from USSR to run the secret police.
    1984 UN sends investigators to Afghanistan to examine reported human rights violations.
    1986 Babrak Karmal is replaced by Dr. Najibullah.
    1987 Najibullah proposes ceasefire, but the Mujahideen refuse to deal with a 'puppet government'. Mujahideen make great gains, defeat of Soviets eminent.
    1988 - 1989 Peace accords signed in Geneva. Soviet Union defeated by Afghanistan, total withdrawal by the Soviets occurred on 15 February 1989. Experts agree that at least 40,000-50,000 Soviets lost their lives in action, besides the wounded, suicides, and murders. Mujahideen continue to fight against Najibullah's regime. May, Afghan guerrillas elect Sibhhatullah Mojadidi as head of their government-in-exile.
    1992 April 15, The Mujahideen take Kabul and liberate Afghanistan, Najibullah is protected by UN. The Mujahideen form an Islamic State, Islamic Jihad Council, elections. Iranian and Pakistani interference increases, more fighting, Professor Burhannudin Rabbani is elected President.
    1994 The Taliban militia are born, and advance rapidly against the Rabbani government. Dostum and Hekmatyar continued to clash against Rabbani's government, and as a result Kabul is reduced to rubble.
    1995 Massive gains by the Taliban. Increased Pakistani and Iranian interference.
    1996 June, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, head of Hezbi-Islami, having been eliminated as a military power, signs a peace pact with Rabbani, and returns to Kabul to rule as prime minister. 27 September Taliban militia force President Rabbani and his government out of Kabul. After the capture of Kabul, the Taliban execute Najibullah. Alliance between Government, Hezbi Wahdat, and Dostum Oppression of women by the Taliban, women must be fully veiled, no longer allowed to work, go out alone or even wear white socks. Men are forced to grow beards. Buzkashi, the Afghan national sport is outlawed. Tensions rise as Afghan government accuse Pakistan of aiding the Taliban. Massive human rights violations by the Taliban.
    1997 Mass graves of Taliban soldiers containing between 1,500 and 2,000 bodies are found. The men were believed to have been captured in May by general Abdul Malik during the Taliban's brief takeover of Mazar-i-Sharif.
    1998 February, Earthquake strikes in northeastern Afghansitan, killing over 4,000 people, destroying villages and leaving thousands of people homeless. August, Taliban finally capture Mazar-i-Sharif, and massacre thousands of innocent civilians afterwards, mostly Hazaras. August 20 United States launches cruise missiles hitting Afghanistan's Khost region. US states its intent was to destroy terrorist bases/training facilities used by Osama bin Laden and his followers. September, Tensions rise between Iran and the Taliban. Iranians are angry about the killing of their diplomats and a journalist by the Taliban when they captured Mazar-i-Sharif. Soon they deploy 70,000 troops to carry out military exercises near the Afghan border. In the end, no fighting occurs between the Taliban and the Iranian army.
    1999 February, Earthquake hits eastern Afghanistan, affecting over 30,000 people, and killing at least 60 to 70 people. September, The ex-king of Afghanistan, Mohammad Zahir Shah, calls for a grand assembly, or Loya Jirga to discuss ways of bringing peace to the country. The United Front soon welcomes the idea, but the Taliban ridicule Mohammad Zahir Shah's attempts at establishing peace. October, UN Security Council Resolution 1267 is adopted; sanctions against the Taliban on grounds that they offered sanctuary to Osama bin Ladin.
    2000 May, Taliban torture and kill civilians in the Robatak Pass (on the border between Baghlan and Samangan provinces). September, Taloqan finally falls to the Taliban. December, UN Security Council Resolution 1333 is adopted; additional sanctions against the Taliban for their continuing support of terrorism and cultivation of narcotics, etc.
    2001 January, Taliban torture and kill numerous civilians in Yakaolang (Hazaras). March, Despite pleas and requests from various international diplomats, Islamic scholars, the Taliban destroy ancient historical statues in the Kabul Museum, historical sites in Ghazni, and blow up the giant Bamiyan Buddhas. World expresses outrage and disgust against the Taliban action. April, Ahmad Shah Masood visits Europe to gather support against the Taliban. April, UN accuses Pakistan of not allowing adequate supply of food and medicines to displaced Afghans, at the Jalozai camp, near Peshawar. June - All female foreign aid workers banned from driving.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2017
  12. Jul 4, 2005 #11


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    No I don't but if you don't get it I'll try to make it simple enough for you to understand. I find it strange that you ask every single poster (who disagrees with you) to provide mathematical proof to substantiate and support every reference they cite whilst never providing any such proofs yourself? I know this is a science forum but don't you think that perhaps you are taking the mathematics a tad too far? Not every journalist has a qualification in mathematics but that doesn't mean their copy can be instantly dismissed because it doesn't contain pie charts, Venn diagrams or histograms.
  13. Jul 4, 2005 #12


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    Staff: Mentor

    Nice to see a post with the real history of Afghanistan.

    Art & Rev Pres both, please lighten up.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  14. Jul 4, 2005 #13
    The US government is doing a lot of things here, but I think probably one of the most significant things is the support of the "Back to School" program by providing textbooks. Because of the level of destruction after 20 years of warfare here in Afghanistan, there is simply not the printing, publishing capacity to do it in Afghanistan. So in neighboring Pakistan we and the US government worked with the University of Nebraska in Omaha, which has been through their Afghan center been doing work in Afghanistan for many years. Together we created a giant logistics system that got these books into children’s hands."

    The books were not only in a position for a reasonable use, but were a betrayal to all the classes in particular the primary ones. They held unnecessary material as were not written with the purpose of education but ideological propaganda.

    We come across the following examples in math book:

    - If out of 10 atheists, 5 are killed by 1 Muslim, 5 would be left.
    - 5 guns + 5 guns = 10 guns
    - 15 bullets - 10 bullets = 5 bullets, etc.

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/bio.aspx?act=pro&ddlC=61 [Broken]
    The University of Nebraska at Omaha is home to the Center for Afghanistan Studies, which was established in 1972 and is currently the only academic program in the United States exclusively concerned with Afghanistan affairs. It receives almost all of its funding from outside sources; the university pays for several employees' salaries.

    From its start until 1978, UNO participated in an exchange program with Kabul University. But after the 1978 pro-Soviet coup, the Afghanistan programs stopped.

    It wasn't until 1984 that the Center received its first USAID contract to provide educational training programs and facilities to Afghan refugees. The Center continued the educational programs until the mid 1990s, receiving more than $60 million from USAID.

    For 10 years, the Center received most of its Afghanistan education project funding from USAID. But after Congress ended government-sponsored aid to Afghanistan in the mid-1990s, USAID stopped funding the Center. Still, it wasn't without funding for long.

    In 1997, Unocal, an American oil company, stepped in with an offer.

    Unocal hoped to facilitate a business relationship with the Taliban in order to promote a natural gas pipeline project. The company was the development manager for the seven-member Central Asia Gas pipeline consortium that also included Saudi Arabia's Delta Oil, Indonesia Petroleum, three other companies and the Turkmenistan government

    As the Center for Afghanistan Studies began training civilian men, it also invited key Afghan officials to visit the university. In December 1997, Unocal sponsored a meeting that brought Taliban ministers to the United States, including the minister of mines and industry, the minister for culture and information and the minister for planning. The Taliban's U.N. representative also joined the visiting group. During their stay, they went to Unocal's facilities in Texas, visited the State Department and toured the University of Nebraska at Omaha. In May 1998, two Taliban ministers again visited the university on a Unocal-funded trip. Public outrage over the partnership soon erupted.

    Thomas E. Gouttierre, the director of the Center for Afghanistan Studies, is an old friend of Zalmay Khalilzad, President's Bush's nominee as ambassador to Afghanistan and a former paid adviser to Unocal. While working for the Cambridge Energy Research Associates, Khalilzad conducted risk analysis for Unocal for the proposed pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan.

    Thomas E. Eighmy, research associate for the Center for Afghanistan Studies, is a retired USAID officer.

    Ronald Roskens, who is a former UNO chancellor , was the director of USAID in the first Bush administration
    http://www.icdsm.com/more/abc-i.htm [Broken]
    As Afghan schools reopen today, the United States has delivered 4 million radical Islamist texbooks. More are on the way.* (See text below).

    About 18 of the 200 titles the United States is republishing are primarily Islamic instructional books, which agency officials refer to as "civics" courses. Some books teach how to live according to the Koran, Brown said, and "how to be a good Muslim."
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  15. Jul 4, 2005 #14
    I find this conclusion not only to be erroneous but racist. If look at all the old civilizations of the world you will see a history riddled with conflict. Even more recent civilizations, such as Europe, and though the US is an even younger country, just take a look at our crime rates. :bugeye:
  16. Jul 4, 2005 #15

    Relax, 2 cents. I actually considered it a compliment that they would be natural warriors.

    If you look at the timeline, they seem to be a people who simply will not be defeated.

    Where is there racism in that??? Infact, if you knew anything about my posts on this forum, then the fact that they are a people who will not lie down defeated is something that troubles me, since I support the US war effort in Afghanistan.
  17. Jul 4, 2005 #16
    Perhaps I can summarize this.
    The radical Islamic movement is a highly dangerous sectarian ideology/theology, as the "radical" element view's anything other than their submission worthy of death.
  18. Jul 4, 2005 #17
    I ask every single poster making an assertion of fact that, for whatever reason, lies outside of the established literature to show support for what can only be what Wikipedians call "original research"--their own or ripped from some kook's website.

    Then you must not paying attention. Just this evening I've produced quantitative evidence refuting cyclical party success in presidential elections and demonstrating the fiscal infeasibility of the draft. I try not to inundate you with it unless the pertinent point is unclear qualitatively, but you should at the very least be able to express your positions in terms easily checked against the facts.

    No, I'm pointing out that this article doesn't even begin to establish that this American program contributed to a culture of violence in Afghanistan. You could go a long way by describing such and showing that it actually exists, and then actually reviewing the books involved. These are major factual defects in the news piece you may want to rectify before spreading the Good News so confidently.

    I didn't say that, but then again the journalist isn't (necessarily) a scientist. Echoers like yourself--doubly so for one who posts here--shouldn't expect poorly held views not to be challenged when presented to discerning crowds.

    I'm not so unreasonable as to believe you need to go out, perform field work, and report back with a proper sample and analysis in hand just to argue a point on an online message board. You could check to see if somebody's already done the hard work for you.

    Rev Prez
  19. Jul 4, 2005 #18
    And apparantly one of those things is printing books and sending them to Afghan schools. I don't think anyone's disputing that, Burn.

    Rev Prez
  20. Jul 4, 2005 #19
    How ironic... hatred of foreign invaders, and now the current U.S. occupation of Afghanistan... Now the book's "lessons" are being used against the creators of the books....
  21. Jul 4, 2005 #20
    Which, unsurprisingly, isn't what Brown said.

    Rev Prez
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